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Thread: Several Democrats fighting for tax break for the rich

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    The problem I have with the SALT cap is that it is a targeted punishment to blue states....
    Yes; it was shameful the way the Trump-Hannity-McConnell troika passed legislation deliberately punishing states that vote Blue.

    In my dreams the first legislation this year would have repealed Every Single Bill passed over the past four years.

  2. Top | #12
    Veteran Member funinspace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowy Man View Post
    I don’t know where you live but in the SF Bay Area million dollar homes are not monstrosities.
    Yeah, California and Arizona. New Jersey property taxes. The home / postage stamp it was on in the South Shore of MA that I was a baby in is worth a quarter million I think. The house I grew up in is over $400k now. It was $50/60k in 1983.

    The problem I have with the SALT cap is that it is a targeted punishment to blue states. That isn't equal protection. We know stuff is cheaper in the South than the NE and West Coast. People of equivalent wealth in the South benefit fully, people in the NE and West Coast are being punished. Are they well off, most of them probably, but there are likely a number that aren't as much. Granted, yes, they get the first large chunk cut off and they are only not deducting a fraction of the cost, but that isn't equal protection of the law and it was very much intentional.
    I generally agree, but I also think that the SALT deductions were to generous in general. Mortgage interest deductions probably shouldn't be brought back, just like they got rid of other interest deductions in the 1980's. Before the TCJA, people were even allowed to deduct mortgage interest on second homes.

    On the state income and property taxes, it always seems a bit weird to be paying federal taxes on income that already went to pay state taxes. I'd be more in favor of repealing the whole JTCA, and then starting over with real changes. One of the things the JTCA got rid of with lower rates, was deductions for R&D. That was stupid then, and the Dems changes seems to be keeping it the same, but with higher tax rates for corporations. If Team Biden really wants to compete with China and other parts of Asia, then we are going to have to engage the R&D game more, rather then blaming foreigners for our problems.

  3. Top | #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by funinspace View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowy Man View Post
    I don’t know where you live but in the SF Bay Area million dollar homes are not monstrosities.
    Yeah, California and Arizona. New Jersey property taxes. The home / postage stamp it was on in the South Shore of MA that I was a baby in is worth a quarter million I think. The house I grew up in is over $400k now. It was $50/60k in 1983.

    The problem I have with the SALT cap is that it is a targeted punishment to blue states. That isn't equal protection. We know stuff is cheaper in the South than the NE and West Coast. People of equivalent wealth in the South benefit fully, people in the NE and West Coast are being punished. Are they well off, most of them probably, but there are likely a number that aren't as much. Granted, yes, they get the first large chunk cut off and they are only not deducting a fraction of the cost, but that isn't equal protection of the law and it was very much intentional.
    I generally agree, but I also think that the SALT deductions were to generous in general. Mortgage interest deductions probably shouldn't be brought back, just like they got rid of other interest deductions in the 1980's. Before the TCJA, people were even allowed to deduct mortgage interest on second homes.
    I find that reasonable. Being allowed to deduct mortgage interest on a first home seems a priority over following homes, and certainly it makes little sense to allowed for multiple homes. I'm hesitant to say get rid of mortgage interest deduction as it was something that helped previous generations and it is dickish to get rid of it to deal with poor spending and taxing priorities. Granted, interest on mortgages is very low... though that is why the prices on homes are so high. There is likely an equation in there about that balance.

    On the state income and property taxes, it always seems a bit weird to be paying federal taxes on income that already went to pay state taxes. I'd be more in favor of repealing the whole JTCA, and then starting over with real changes. One of the things the JTCA got rid of with lower rates, was deductions for R&D. That was stupid then, and the Dems changes seems to be keeping it the same, but with higher tax rates for corporations. If Team Biden really wants to compete with China and other parts of Asia, then we are going to have to engage the R&D game more, rather then blaming foreigners for our problems.
    If we want to compete with China, we need to invest in schooling. And of course, are we really competing with China? Aren't we technologically better?

  4. Top | #14
    Veteran Member funinspace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by funinspace View Post
    On the state income and property taxes, it always seems a bit weird to be paying federal taxes on income that already went to pay state taxes. I'd be more in favor of repealing the whole JTCA, and then starting over with real changes. One of the things the JTCA got rid of with lower rates, was deductions for R&D. That was stupid then, and the Dems changes seems to be keeping it the same, but with higher tax rates for corporations. If Team Biden really wants to compete with China and other parts of Asia, then we are going to have to engage the R&D game more, rather then blaming foreigners for our problems.
    If we want to compete with China, we need to invest in schooling.
    Sure, that would be another thing without trying to blame others...

    And of course, are we really competing with China?
    We aren't?
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/10/asia/...-ml/index.html
    "I cannot for the life of me understand some of the capabilities that they're putting in the field unless it is an aggressive posture," Adm. Philip Davidson, the head of US Indo-Pacific Command, said in testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee.
    "I see them developing systems, capabilities and a posture that would indicate that they're interested in aggression," Davidson said.
    Just imagine their nerve, challenging US domination in their back yard...


    Aren't we technologically better?
    Sure for now... But the US no longer has the most advanced chip factories in the world. Intel for example is years behind in their effort to build smaller chip factories in the US. Taiwan's TSMC is several years ahead of Intel, and not slowing down. But yes, we still lead in designs... The US government is fearful enough that Biden seems to be continuing the US blacklisting of a multitude of Chinese chip making companies, even continuing the threats to 3rd country companies to not deal with them. But I'll stop with this short comment, as I'm getting further off topic...

  5. Top | #15
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    What would the impact be on those DINOs if they are the cause of the failure of the infrastructure bill?
    I have a feeling they might think twice before actually putting themselves in that position.

  6. Top | #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    The problem I have with the SALT cap is that it is a targeted punishment to blue states.
    The SALT cap was driven solely by partisan politics not the need for revenue. Senators from the states that are net gainers at the federal trough pushed this through. So not only do the blue state tax payers get to pay even more in taxes while the red states voters continue to receive their federal "welfare".




    T

  7. Top | #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowy Man View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    There are a lot of upper middle class people in expensive areas that are seriously hurt by the SALT cap.

    Nah, not really. “Affected” by SALT cap, but not “hurt” by SALT cap. That’s stretching it way too thin. People who are paying more than $10,000 in property tax and mortgage interest aren’t “hurt” by having the amounts over $10K no longer deductable. Remember, it’s only the amount OVER $10K that you don’t get to write off any more. So “hurt” is hardly what is happening to people with Million dollar homes who should not have been subsidized for their monstrosities in the first place.
    I don’t know where you live but in the SF Bay Area million dollar homes are not monstrosities.
    True, the median home price is 1.5 million. But I know people who own homes like these. Usually, it's two people with jobs earning over 150k each (closer to 200k each, really). I think they'll be fine.

  8. Top | #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by J842P View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowy Man View Post
    I don’t know where you live but in the SF Bay Area million dollar homes are not monstrosities.
    True, the median home price is 1.5 million. But I know people who own homes like these. Usually, it's two people with jobs earning over 150k each (closer to 200k each, really). I think they'll be fine.
    For the same reason the house prices are high, those salaries aren’t as sunny as they look just by the number.

    I know mostly middle class families of four with decent size (1200-1600 sq ft) homes above the $1M mark. And it’s not like these are even in the best school districts in the area.

    Yes, these aren’t poor people but having your taxes go up by thousands of dollars after the tax changes can be stressing on a family, especially those with children who need daycare (another very expensive service in the Bay Area).

  9. Top | #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    There are a lot of upper middle class people in expensive areas that are seriously hurt by the SALT cap.

    Nah, not really. “Affected” by SALT cap, but not “hurt” by SALT cap. That’s stretching it way too thin. People who are paying more than $10,000 in property tax and mortgage interest aren’t “hurt” by having the amounts over $10K no longer deductable. Remember, it’s only the amount OVER $10K that you don’t get to write off any more. So “hurt” is hardly what is happening to people with Million dollar homes who should not have been subsidized for their monstrosities in the first place.
    You missed the "expensive areas" bit. A million dollar house is not much house in some of expensive places.

  10. Top | #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    According to the linked article, the average SALT deduction in Rockland and Westchester counties in NY (the places most likely to have the highest average) Is $36K and $22K, respectively.

    If a person has a large enough home and a high enough income to pay that much in state and local taxes and is within $36,000 of being “hurt,” I’ll send them financial planning advice for free.
    It would be worth what you're charging. You don't understand how expensive the cost of living is in some of those areas.

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