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Thread: Adam Toledo video released

  1. Top | #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post


    This is so important. Police have this stupid Hollywood-Drill-Sargeant habit of SHOUT-SHOUT-SHOUT-SCREAM and they give conflicting instructions and they work
    Utter bullcrap. In this particular case suspect damn well knew what he was doing and what he was ordered to do. He had presence of mind to run till opening in the wooden fence, tossed the gun to the other side of the fence and turned around and showed his hands as if nothing happened.
    He was very good and police officer most certainly did not see him tossing the gun and from his point of view he still had it and turned around to shoot. If he had not turned around he would have been alive.
    There is NOTHING that makes me think this boy would still be alive. He complied with police instructions. He's dead.

    Let's do a little compare and contrast:

    Adam Toledo was 13 years old. Sean Hannity referred to him as a 13 year old Man.
    Kyle Rittenhouse was 17 years old. Sean Hannity referred to him as a 17 year old boy.
    Adam Toledo put his hands up and dropped his weapon. He killed nobody. He was killed by police.
    Kyle Rittenhouse had an AR-15 and had killed two people. He wasn't even asked to comply. He was taken into custody. He fled the state where he killed two individuals. Police and public officials contributed to his defense fund.
    Adam Toledo was Latino.
    Kyle Rittenhouse is white.

  2. Top | #52
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    I saw this on twitter and am bringing this here, so that people can maybe understand who Adam Toledo was:




  3. Top | #53
    Elder Contributor barbos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post


    This is so important. Police have this stupid Hollywood-Drill-Sargeant habit of SHOUT-SHOUT-SHOUT-SCREAM and they give conflicting instructions and they work
    Utter bullcrap. In this particular case suspect damn well knew what he was doing and what he was ordered to do. He had presence of mind to run till opening in the wooden fence, tossed the gun to the other side of the fence and turned around and showed his hands as if nothing happened.
    He was very good and police officer most certainly did not see him tossing the gun and from his point of view he still had it and turned around to shoot. If he had not turned around he would have been alive.
    There is NOTHING that makes me think this boy would still be alive. He complied with police instructions. He's dead.
    He was not instructed to turn around.
    Let's do a little compare and contrast:

    Adam Toledo was 13 years old. Sean Hannity referred to him as a 13 year old Man.
    .
    Sean who?

  4. Top | #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    It would help if all police had to take a detailed course in how to deal with mentally ill folks along with how best to communicate with the people they are supposed to be protecting. If they can't stay calm, I'd say they are in the wrong business.
    Shouting at someone NEVER HELPS. It is poor communication. It is ambiguus communication. It is destructive communication.
    Police are stupid to use it to try to get compliance.

    If you look at the police trained to negotiate in fraught situations like with hostages, you’ll notice they know to NEVER SHOUT if they want to control the situation.

    The police who shouted at this boy were doing stupid things and should not be in this line of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post


    This is so important. Police have this stupid Hollywood-Drill-Sargeant habit of SHOUT-SHOUT-SHOUT-SCREAM and they give conflicting instructions and they work
    Utter bullcrap. In this particular case suspect damn well knew what he was doing and what he was ordered to do. He had presence of mind to run till opening in the wooden fence, tossed the gun to the other side of the fence and turned around and showed his hands as if nothing happened.
    He threw away the gun. So. Fucking. What. That does not make him more dangerous, it makes him less dangerous.

    The 13 year old kid de-escalated the situation by getting rid of the gun. In what way is the kid throwing away the gun adding any danger to the police, huh? He showed his empty hands.

    And you think the cops are too stupid to to handle a 13yo kid who has thrown away his gun. You think he should die anyway.


    He was very good and police officer most certainly did not see him tossing the gun and from his point of view he still had it and turned around to shoot. If he had not turned around he would have been alive.
    Stupid cop did not allow this to happen. Stupid behavior of shouting and screaming such that stupid cop cannot hear any replies from suspect. Does not give any moment for suspect to use their words to let cop know he is complying. How can the cops be so stupid as to cut off two way communications like that?

    It’s just tragically stupid.
    The stupid shouting and screeching by the cops make matters worse. It’s a stupid hollywood scene of attempted dominance rather than actually controlling the situation. . And that’s what makes it so tragically stupid.

  5. Top | #55
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    For another compare and contrast:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...edo-parallels/


    In the summer of 1993, a week before my 13th birthday, I went after the kids across the street with a butcher knife. I can’t recall what I was so mad about, but I am sure it was something stupid. When they saw me coming, they ran into their house, along with one of my sisters, and slammed the door shut. But I was right behind them. Before they could lock the door, I threw myself against it, pushing it open for a few moments and stabbing into the air of the foyer before they could close it again. We followed this rhythm — open door, stab air, door closes — several times. Before giving up, I screamed and stabbed the knife into the metal door, permanently curling the tip of the blade.

    I remembered this incident Thursday when Chicago police released body-camera footage of a fatal interaction with Adam Toledo last month. Officers responding to a report of gunshots in the area began chasing Toledo, who ran. The video then appears to show Toledo, who was Latino, complying with officer instructions to stop and put his hands up when he was shot once in the chest and killed. He was 13 years old.
    Though Toledo’s case and my own are not exactly alike, there are enough parallels that I couldn’t help but reflect on my different treatment when I was the same age.

    By the time the police arrived, I had fled the scene. I believe I had thrown down the knife by then, but I do not remember it clearly. When I returned about an hour later, an officer was waiting in my driveway. He did not pull out his service weapon or shout instructions as I approached, though he had no way of knowing if I was armed or not. His tone was serious, and he was clear that I would probably be charged with a crime, but I was never searched, handcuffed or arrested.

    Soon afterward, I was charged with menacing with a deadly weapon, a felony.

    Eventually, I had to go to court, do community service, pay a fine, attend court-mandated therapy and receive a strict curfew and a juvenile supervision officer. After two years, I wasn’t caught for anything else, and the charges were dropped. (I say “wasn’t caught,” because I was still deeply troubled and regularly breaking laws — this is not a scared-straight story — I just didn’t do anything else violent or worth calling the police over.)


    After five years, I applied for and got my record expunged. The popular assumption that juvenile records are confidential, sealed or automatically expunged when a minor becomes an adult is generally false.

    Police shooting of 13-year-old in Chicago leads to calls in the city for radical police reform

    By my senior year of high school, things were looking up for me: I moved out of my abusive household and into a group house with some kind young women in their twenties. I got a job at a pizza shop. I got into college. I did well, transferred to a better college, got another job and ticked the box on applications that says “no record.” Since this happened in the 1990s and the Internet barely existed, there really was no record. These days, because of the proliferation of online background check databases, among other issues, it is much more difficult for a juvenile record to disappear completely, according to the Juvenile Law Center.

    I got a job as a flight attendant and traveled the world. I did a lot more therapy, got sober after drinking heavily for years and went back to school. I started a new career that led me to The Washington Post. Today, I’m in a great marriage and have a cute kid.


    Here’s the thing: That day in court in 1994, as I sat waiting for my turn, the kid ahead of me in line stood before the magistrate. He had the same charge I did — menacing with a deadly weapon. He was 14 and by that time, I think I was, too. We were about the same height, which is to say we were both quite short and still looked like children.

    He got sentenced to juvenile detention and probably would have a permanent record. The terms of my deferred adjudication deal were already worked out.

    The difference? I suspect it’s because I’m White. He was Hispanic. Although my family struggled financially, my out-of-state father had swooped in right before my court date with enough money to get me a lawyer. The other kid was just there with his mom.

    Is it possible my gender made a difference? Perhaps. But it doesn’t account for all of the disparity: Just take a look at the overrepresentation of girls of color, particularly Black and Native American girls, in juvenile confinement. They get longer sentences in stricter facilities and are more frequently transferred to adult court than White girls, according to the Prison Policy Initiative.


    I have understood since that day in court that my privilege — my Whiteness and my family having just enough money for an attorney — allowed me to get a better deal in the justice system, one that would enable me to live a whole full life, good and bad, average and extraordinary. I knew it as a kid in 1994, and I know it now.

    Why the Adam Toledo video is causing some news organizations to draw a line

    Is it possible that the weapon made the difference? The Hispanic boy and I had the same charge, but his weapon was a gun, not a knife. Chicago police have said they found a gun near Toledo after they shot him. I don’t know if it accounts for the disparity, but I do know that a few months before the knife incident, there was another one.

    I had been hanging out with the same girl across the street whom I would later attack. She was 16, a dropout, and I desperately wanted to impress her and appear tougher and older than I was. We were playing with one of her family’s guns, and she dared me fire it. I pointed it toward a back fence and pulled the trigger. A neighbor called the police, and as the patrol car pulled up, the older girl panicked. She couldn’t get in trouble again, she said, and I was too young for them to arrest. She told me to tell the officer I had been snooping around her house without her knowledge, found the family gun and fired it by myself. I think it’s unlikely I had the gun when I came out, though I don’t have a specific memory of where it was at that point. I remember sobbing as I told the cop this lie and the older girl was lying, too. The officer drove me around the corner, made me apologize to the neighbor who had been scared by the gunshot and then let me go.


    For a long time, I thought the pivot point for my life fit on the tip of that knife blade. If I had so much as nicked someone’s forearm as I was stabbing the air, the course of my future would have been completely different, I would think. The charges could very easily have been attempted murder, something that not even my Whiteness or a good lawyer could overcome.

    I don’t believe that anymore. Having now spoken with enough White friends about our juvenile transgressions, I think it is completely possible that even if, God forbid, I had physically harmed someone, I still could have avoided permanent consequences. In fact, several White friends who come from wealthier families have expressed shock that I faced charges at all.

    Now, as Toledo’s mother mourns her son, there’s something else I understand. It isn’t just that I got the privilege of moving through the world without a criminal record.

    When the cops showed up, they didn’t shoot me.


  6. Top | #56
    Veteran Member James Brown's Avatar
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    I wonder what would have happened if the boy had not tossed down the gun.

    I suspect he would have been shot all the same. An armed boy is more dangerous than an unarmed one.

    If the end result would have been the same, then the issue of 0.8 seconds being "not enough time" for the officer to re-evaluate the situation is moot, isn't it?

  7. Top | #57
    Elder Contributor barbos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post

    Shouting at someone NEVER HELPS. It is poor communication. It is ambiguus communication. It is destructive communication.
    Police are stupid to use it to try to get compliance.
    Do you know what else is poor communication? repeating the same BS over and over again.
    Stop this BS. He knew what he was doing. He was trying to get away from the police and he knew that he should not have been doing that. He was not not a 3 year old.

    If you look at the police trained to negotiate in fraught situations like with hostages, you’ll notice they know to NEVER SHOUT if they want to control the situation.

    The police who shouted at this boy were doing stupid things and should not be in this line of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by barbos View Post
    Utter bullcrap. In this particular case suspect damn well knew what he was doing and what he was ordered to do. He had presence of mind to run till opening in the wooden fence, tossed the gun to the other side of the fence and turned around and showed his hands as if nothing happened.
    He threw away the gun. So. Fucking. What. That does not make him more dangerous, it makes him less dangerous.
    {Elision}, police officer DID NOT see that.
    The 13 year old kid de-escalated the situation by getting rid of the gun.
    Fuck no!
    In what way is the kid throwing away the gun adding any danger to the police, huh?
    I said no such thing. I said turning around added a danger to the police.
    He showed his empty hands.

    And you think the cops are too stupid to to handle a 13yo kid who has thrown away his gun. You think he should die anyway.
    {Elision}

    He was very good and police officer most certainly did not see him tossing the gun and from his point of view he still had it and turned around to shoot. If he had not turned around he would have been alive.
    Stupid cop did not allow this to happen. Stupid behavior of shouting and screaming such that stupid cop cannot hear any replies from suspect. Does not give any moment for suspect to use their words to let cop know he is complying. How can the cops be so stupid as to cut off two way communications like that?

    It’s just tragically stupid.
    The stupid shouting and screeching by the cops make matters worse. It’s a stupid hollywood scene of attempted dominance rather than actually controlling the situation. . And that’s what makes it so tragically stupid.
    Bullshit, he died because he choose to play games with the police.
    Last edited by spikepipsqueak; 04-20-2021 at 12:16 AM. Reason: Removed abusive comments

  8. Top | #58
    Elder Contributor barbos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    I wonder what would have happened if the boy had not tossed down the gun.

    I suspect he would have been shot all the same. An armed boy is more dangerous than an unarmed one.

    If the end result would have been the same, then the issue of 0.8 seconds being "not enough time" for the officer to re-evaluate the situation is moot, isn't it?
    If he had slowly stopped without turning around then shown his hands (with or without the gun), again, without turning around he would have been alive.

    Police officer himself and police procedures have absolutely no blame in his death. The blame is on laws which would let that 21 year old off with a slap on a wrist. He should be getting life sentence instead.

  9. Top | #59
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    I wonder what would have happened if the boy had not tossed down the gun.
    I wonder what would have happened if a gun weren't available to a boy at all.
    Tom

  10. Top | #60
    Elder Contributor barbos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomC View Post
    I wonder what would have happened if the boy had not tossed down the gun.
    I wonder what would have happened if a gun weren't available to a boy at all.
    Tom
    But second amendment!

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