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Thread: Nagel's Batty Explanation of the Mind-Body Problem

  1. Top | #31
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Swammerdami I agree a being is conscious, has a brain and nervous system, etc.

    However, consciousness is an aspect, attribute, of a being. It is not a separate thing, like are being parts brain and heart, from the being called consciousness. It's is the being's consciousness. Most of those here who use descriptors of parts like brain speak of it, the brain or consciousness, doing something that, in actuality, should be attributed to the being who is doing.

    The brain does not create consciousness, consciousness doesn't do, etc. Consciousness is a construct it is not a thing. Is it a subjective thing if anything at all. Even as subjective the consciousness doesn't do create, or anything else beyond serving as a construct to frame notion. Don't bless it as being alive or even an actual part of the being. Hypothetical construct! No more.

    That is what I call reductionist.

    I agree with untermensche that humans and many mammals exhibit what we call conscious behavior. It's just that we can't package create in the construct. Color may be expressed by beings somewhat differently under similar conditions that is not proof that a construct, called conscious, creates anything. Creation, if there is such a thing among living beings is a being thing, being created.

  2. Top | #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Swammerdami I agree a being is conscious, has a brain and nervous system, etc.

    However, consciousness is an aspect, attribute, of a being. It is not a separate thing, like are being parts brain and heart, from the being called consciousness. It's is the being's consciousness. Most of those here who use descriptors of parts like brain speak of it, the brain or consciousness, doing something that, in actuality, should be attributed to the being who is doing.

    The brain does not create consciousness, consciousness doesn't do, etc. Consciousness is a construct it is not a thing. Is it a subjective thing if anything at all. Even as subjective the consciousness doesn't do create, or anything else beyond serving as a construct to frame notion. Don't bless it as being alive or even an actual part of the being. Hypothetical construct! No more.

    That is what I call reductionist.

    I agree with untermensche that humans and many mammals exhibit what we call conscious behavior. It's just that we can't package create in the construct. Color may be expressed by beings somewhat differently under similar conditions that is not proof that a construct, called conscious, creates anything. Creation, if there is such a thing among living beings is a being thing, being created.
    I agree with all this; and apologize if my prior post left these distinctions unclear.

  3. Top | #33
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    You didn't Swammerdami. I took the liberty of sharpening the point on of your point. Thank you.

  4. Top | #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    I agree with untermensche that humans and many mammals exhibit what we call conscious behavior. It's just that we can't package create in the construct. Color may be expressed by beings somewhat differently under similar conditions that is not proof that a construct, called conscious, creates anything. Creation, if there is such a thing among living beings is a being thing, being created.
    You're arguing semantics.

    The word "consciousness" has two meanings. It can mean the ability to be aware of thing. Or it is used sometimes like people use the word "mind". As that entity that is aware of things.

    Consciousness used as a noun requires two things. One of them is consciousness as a verb.

    To have consciousness you need that which can be conscious of things, know they are there and know what they are. And all the things that a human can possibly be conscious of. The brain creations. Like sound and sight and smell and taste.

    When you have some thing aware that it is experiencing a sound and recognizing it as their favorite song you have consciousness.

  5. Top | #35
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    You have a definitional problem. A variable can't be part of what it defines. Such would be an intervening variable which is never necessary nor existent. Variables are singular. Consciousness doesn't know that it is conscious or even what it does. It is a construct. Ergo conscious doesn't create consciousness or experience. Only the being does or estimates those things. Both conscious and experience are referent to states of being. The being is conscious. The being experiences.

    They're subjective statements/entities for Christ sake.

  6. Top | #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    You have a definitional problem. A variable can't be part of what it defines.
    Says who? The grammar police?

    Consciousness doesn't know that it is conscious or even what it does.
    Who's consciousness is that?

    When I eat ice cream I know I am eating ice cream. No doubt.

    I know. The subjective experiencer knows.

    Because that is what awareness is. One thing being aware of some other thing.

    That is what experience is. One thing experiencing some other thing.

    It is a construct.
    Yes. The mind is a brain construction.

    That is how it exists and can experience other brain constructs. Like sound or color.

  7. Top | #37
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    We presume mind is a brain construction simply because it is easier to record from the brain than it is from spinal ganglia. That it is a construction does not mean the brain created it. In fact we know that glands and other tissue make up mind as well. Mind is not just for reason yano.

  8. Top | #38
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    We presume the table experienced is a construction because the table is not being experienced.

    It has not entered the eye in any way.

  9. Top | #39
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Of course we see a table. Light reflecting off a table enters the eye, activates representative spatial and hue sensitive cells then that information is passed up the nervous system for processing to be done with as the being attending to it deems necessary for satisfactory disposition.

  10. Top | #40
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    You experience a brain created representation of the table from reflected energy that has nothing to do with tables.

    Light is an anthropocentric term that describes the human reaction to the energy and nothing about the energy.

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