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Thread: Nagel's Batty Explanation of the Mind-Body Problem

  1. Top | #51
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Every spring over the past four or five years we get two geese here at lake Garrison in the spring who settle down and raise children. I believe they are from a flock that passes over about the same time every year that lost their way. They are clearly not happy beings since most every day they spent hours calling out over the region which is risky for prey where foxes and racoons abound.

    Geese are notoriously single mate social beings. This last year there was only one goose. Settled, yes, no matting. Always calling. Did so for more than week then ceased. It may have left but I think someone will find it's Carcass about in the reeds some day.

    You see there my conscious working, but, I think it says something more about the consciousness of geese.

  2. Top | #52
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    It says something about the intellectual capacity of geese and their instinctual desire to be within the flock.

    Humans also have the instinctual desire to be within the flock (the tribe).

    There is safety and a much better chance to survive within the flock.

  3. Top | #53
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    ...
    At the end of the day angst over determinism seems to predominate, but most of us forget that we are the thing that is deterministic. We are the thing that is determining. Does a bird get angsty over being a bird, or does it just keep on being a bird?
    That's my objection to the a-determinists. Why would I want to be something other than what I am? Know thyself and you will discover both meaning and purpose.

  4. Top | #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    ...
    At the end of the day angst over determinism seems to predominate, but most of us forget that we are the thing that is deterministic. We are the thing that is determining. Does a bird get angsty over being a bird, or does it just keep on being a bird?
    That's my objection to the a-determinists. Why would I want to be something other than what I am? Know thyself and you will discover both meaning and purpose.
    Exactly. There is a kind of irony over acquiring knowledge and consequently feeling less free. Which goes to show that reason is only useful if you use it to seek out helpful and accurate perspectives, and not just fool yourself.

    The Buddhist and Vedanta view will say that life is mostly clinging and illusion, and we become free when we stop clinging. << that's a sentence that's easy to read, but hard to really grasp and intuit into our everyday life.

  5. Top | #55
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    It says something about the intellectual capacity of geese and their instinctual desire to be within the flock.

    Humans also have the instinctual desire to be within the flock (the tribe).

    There is safety and a much better chance to survive within the flock.
    It's much more than instinctual. These individuals were behaving as they were missing something, conducting searches for flock and partner. These are not things that normally occur in flock species. Yes they have limitations, but we needn't be British ethologists need we? This is individual behavior leveraging on what is normal among this species. It is an act permitted by inborn tendencies but it is relatively unique. It, IMHO was conscious activity. And it was an act of a lonely pair.

  6. Top | #56
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    A man seeks out his true love. He tirelessly courts her and wins her affection. They engage in sexually productive activity and have a child they attend to constantly.

    I would say that none of that is willed behavior.

    It is all instinctual behavior.

    Many men wake up one day and wonder why did they did any of it when they meet and begin courting a mistress. Further instinctual behavior.

    As far as distressed geese go.

    Your guess to explain their behavior is as good as mine. The geese can't tell us what is wrong.

    If we saw what stopped their behavior we might better understand what was distressing them.

  7. Top | #57
    Veteran Member none's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    A man seeks out his true love. He tirelessly courts her and wins her affection. They engage in sexually productive activity and have a child they attend to constantly.

    I would say that none of that is willed behavior.

    It is all instinctual behavior.

    Many men wake up one day and wonder why did they did any of it when they meet and begin courting a mistress. Further instinctual behavior.

    As far as distressed geese go.

    Your guess to explain their behavior is as good as mine. The geese can't tell us what is wrong.

    If we saw what stopped their behavior we might better understand what was distressing them.
    you're skipping puberty, adolescence, and conditioning

  8. Top | #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by none View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    A man seeks out his true love. He tirelessly courts her and wins her affection. They engage in sexually productive activity and have a child they attend to constantly.

    I would say that none of that is willed behavior.

    It is all instinctual behavior.

    Many men wake up one day and wonder why did they did any of it when they meet and begin courting a mistress. Further instinctual behavior.

    As far as distressed geese go.

    Your guess to explain their behavior is as good as mine. The geese can't tell us what is wrong.

    If we saw what stopped their behavior we might better understand what was distressing them.
    you're skipping puberty, adolescence, and conditioning
    There is only one conditioning.

    You see other humans living as couples and you know people that are part of a couple.

    So you can become conditioned to see that as normal behavior.

    As far as growth periods? They lead to the instinctual desire for sex. Adolescents can speak of their sexual frustrations.

    But the growth periods don't lead to a desire for a single mate excluding all others.

    That is cultural.

    In early human societies the individual was raised by the tribe. Not raised solely by the parents. The father took place in raising the child by protecting and providing for the tribe. The mother and possibly other females took care of the needs of the child.

    It was like chimp societies as far as parenting.

    A child felt part of a tribe with a mother and possibly other females that took special care of them. They did not simply feel part of a small family.

    Isolation into small families is not natural.

    The tribe is natural. We long for the tribe.

  9. Top | #59
    Veteran Member none's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by none View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    A man seeks out his true love. He tirelessly courts her and wins her affection. They engage in sexually productive activity and have a child they attend to constantly.

    I would say that none of that is willed behavior.

    It is all instinctual behavior.

    Many men wake up one day and wonder why did they did any of it when they meet and begin courting a mistress. Further instinctual behavior.

    As far as distressed geese go.

    Your guess to explain their behavior is as good as mine. The geese can't tell us what is wrong.

    If we saw what stopped their behavior we might better understand what was distressing them.
    you're skipping puberty, adolescence, and conditioning
    There is only one conditioning.

    You see other humans living as couples and you know people that are part of a couple.

    So you can become conditioned to see that as normal behavior.

    As far as growth periods? They lead to the instinctual desire for sex. Adolescents can speak of their sexual frustrations.

    But the growth periods don't lead to a desire for a single mate excluding all others.

    That is cultural.

    In early human societies the individual was raised by the tribe. Not raised solely by the parents. The father took place in raising the child by protecting and providing for the tribe. The mother and possibly other females took care of the needs of the child.

    It was like chimp societies as far as parenting.

    A child felt part of a tribe with a mother and possibly other females that took special care of them. They did not simply feel part of a small family.

    Isolation into small families is not natural.

    The tribe is natural. We long for the tribe.
    do I gotta whip out my dick again?

  10. Top | #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by none View Post
    do I gotta whip out my dick again?
    Is that what you do when you have nothing rational to say?

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