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Thread: More Trouble In Israel

  1. Top | #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    The US is what allows Israel to continue it's brutal oppression and theft.

    The US is what made Israel powerful.

    The US is who has shielded Israel from UN sanctions for it's many crimes.

    US citizens have some responsibility for what Israel has been doing these past decades.

    You can't expect a nation not allowed to have a military to be able to secure it's borders.
    This was very true, 15 years ago. Israel today is very independent. It has moved on from the US. It's economy is so strong that it now makes enough money that it can produce most of it's own weapons. It also is more popular today than the US. It was stunning to see an Israeli leader take such a side in the US elections favoring Trump. But the US does not have the influence that we once did:

    https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...-u-s-leverage/

    "But that dependence may be ending. While Israel still benefits greatly from U.S. assistance, security experts and political analysts say that the country has quietly cultivated, and may have achieved, effective autonomy from the United States"
    Having a measure of independence after the US gave you hundreds of billions for free is something any nation would achieve.

    Israel needs the US at the UN.

    Otherwise it could be bled dry for all it's crimes.
    That's a great idea! Let's just wait until the UN can fix this mess and help the Palestinians! I'm sure that the Palestinians won't have to wait for this to happen for another 73 years!

  2. Top | #372
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    The Palestinians are screwed. But they have to take some responsibility for this. For whatever reason, they have always refused to develop an effective government that will speak for the Palestinian's benefit. They have always played the victim, relying on fellow Arab states to fight for their rights. This passive aggressive approach caused them to not act when offered good peace plans (Clinton plan, Oslo, and etc.). This approach seemed to work for a short time as the Arab states made peace with Israel contingent upon finding a good solution with the Palestinians. However, time is not on the Palestinian side. And as time has gone on and on: the Arab states have recognized that they have more immediate concerns: countering Iran; the wars in Yemen, Libya and Syria; and economics, diversifying their economy, and stability.

    The Palestinians are weakened by their internal divisions, lack of strategy, and leadership made unpopular via bad governance and corruption. They mostly say just say "no". Just saying no isn't going to get them anything. And their allies, the Arab states, have moved on. Palestinians are no longer their priority. I'm still optimistic for the Palestinians. But they are going to have to start looking out for their own, rather than rely on allies or the UN to save them.
    I think you are being overly simplistic. The problem for the Palestinians is that the Arab nations around it are run by dictators who as fascists always do, have blamed internal problems on whatever is perceived as an external threat. They're all using the Palestinians as a PR weapon against Israel. The humanitarian crisis in Palestine is designed by especially Jordan. But also Iran, Syria and Egypt. They couldn't give less of a shit about the Palestinians. There's very little pan-Arabic unity. It's just something they pay lip service to while screwing over each other. All of Middle-East is ethnically fractured, with a multitude of hierarchies of allegiances, religious or otherwise.

    Seeing this as a Arab vs Jew conflict is being played by the demagogues.

    If the Arabs in the Middle-East truly hated the Jews as much as they say they do they would have crushed Israel back in the 50'ies and 60'ies. The only reason Israel survived was because they weren't trying that hard.

    The Palestinians are truly fucked because they have zero support from Arabs in the Middle-East. The only money they ever get is money to Hammas (to fight Israel) and Fatah (to fight Israel).

    They're doubly fucked because of deluded leftists who in a misguided attempt to help the Palestinians continue to support Fateh and Hammas, who only ever will make the conflict worse.

    This meme isn't just a joke. That's literally what happens.



    This doesn't exonerate Israel. It's very hard to support what Israel is doing. But I don't fault them for defending themselves.

    Too many people have opinions on Israel who have no idea.

    My ex-wife was Israeli.
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  3. Top | #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    Hamas is a normal human reaction.

    It is normal to resist oppression.

    It is what you hope for.
    You still haven't explained why Western Sahara isn't an issue.

    Makes Gaza look good. It's just that it's being done by other Muslims, no propaganda value and nobody's pouring billions into a resistance movement.
    The US is what allows Israel to continue it's brutal oppression and theft.

    The US is what made Israel powerful.

    The US is who has shielded Israel from UN sanctions for it's many crimes.

    US citizens have some responsibility for what Israel has been doing these past decades.

    You can't expect a nation not allowed to have a military to be able to secure it's borders.
    But what's the relevance? The only fighting going on is because the Palestinians are trying to attack. If they would quit attacking they would have no border problem.

  4. Top | #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Israel even provided arms for police in Gaza. The arms were promptly turned over to Hamas.
    Prove this.
    It's not my job to remember inconvenient facts you would prefer to forget. It was discussed at the time.

  5. Top | #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    The Palestinians are screwed. But they have to take some responsibility for this. For whatever reason, they have always refused to develop an effective government that will speak for the Palestinian's benefit.
    Whatever reason = all the Muslim money being poured into ensuring they don't form a viable state.

  6. Top | #376
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    The US is what allows Israel to continue it's brutal oppression and theft.

    The US is what made Israel powerful.

    The US is who has shielded Israel from UN sanctions for it's many crimes.

    US citizens have some responsibility for what Israel has been doing these past decades.

    You can't expect a nation not allowed to have a military to be able to secure it's borders.
    But what's the relevance? The only fighting going on is because the Palestinians are trying to attack. If they would quit attacking they would have no border problem.
    Open your eyes to what happens on the ground for Palestinians. No freedom of movement, you have to go through humiliating checkpoints just to go to the next village. Community punishment for crimes of individuals. Illegal Israeli settlers attacking Palestinians, destroying crops and literally poisoning community water wells. Torture in Israeli jails. Arrests simply for flying the Palestinian flag.

    You only say the above because you're afraid to have a good, hard look at what is really happening because then you would have to admit you are wrong. I can't imagine these right-wingers if they had to actually live like this would not do the same. Hell those snowflakes freak out at having to wear a fucking mask.
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

    Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor but because we can't satisfy the rich.

  7. Top | #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    Hamas is a normal human reaction.

    It is normal to resist oppression.

    It is what you hope for.
    Except that Hamas's approach will never work. Look at history, the countries that established peace with Israel had control of their militants and were willing to trade land for peace.
    A nation allowed to have a military and a modern police force and an airport can establish peace within it's borders.
    I fail to see what airports have to do with establishing peace. Also, there are many nations with armies, police forces, and airports, that are still far from peaceful.

  8. Top | #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayjay View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    A nation allowed to have a military and a modern police force and an airport can establish peace within it's borders.
    I fail to see what airports have to do with establishing peace. Also, there are many nations with armies, police forces, and airports, that are still far from peaceful.
    An airport means the free flow of expertise and materials.

    Palestinians can't secure their borders without external expertise or materials.

  9. Top | #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Open your eyes to what happens on the ground for Palestinians. No freedom of movement, you have to go through humiliating checkpoints just to go to the next village. Community punishment for crimes of individuals. Illegal Israeli settlers attacking Palestinians, destroying crops and literally poisoning community water wells. Torture in Israeli jails. Arrests simply for flying the Palestinian flag.

    You only say the above because you're afraid to have a good, hard look at what is really happening because then you would have to admit you are wrong. I can't imagine these right-wingers if they had to actually live like this would not do the same. Hell those snowflakes freak out at having to wear a fucking mask.
    Which has nothing to do with the issue of whether they need an army.

    And note that most of those attacks on the Palestinians are nothing of the sort. It's standard practice to blame the Jews for things whether or not they have any responsibility or even if there was an attack in the first place. (We are always seeing olive trees being attacked--but often in situations that make no sense. There's an unwanted plant that can easily be mistaken for an olive tree....)

  10. Top | #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayjay View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    A nation allowed to have a military and a modern police force and an airport can establish peace within it's borders.
    I fail to see what airports have to do with establishing peace. Also, there are many nations with armies, police forces, and airports, that are still far from peaceful.
    An airport means the free flow of expertise and materials.

    Palestinians can't secure their borders without external expertise or materials.
    Expertise isn't a problem.

    Anything not of a military nature they can import now and few imports will go by air anyway, it's simply too expensive.

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