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Thread: More Trouble In Israel

  1. Top | #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    Hamas is a normal human reaction.

    It is normal to resist oppression.

    It is what you hope for.
    Except that Hamas's approach will never work. Look at history, the countries that established peace with Israel had control of their militants and were willing to trade land for peace.
    A nation allowed to have a military and a modern police force and an airport can establish peace within it's borders.
    Airports have nothing to do with it.

    Israel even provided arms for police in Gaza. The arms were promptly turned over to Hamas.

    Hamas has no desire to establish peace--they get their funding by continued war.

  2. Top | #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    Hamas is a normal human reaction.

    It is normal to resist oppression.

    It is what you hope for.
    You still haven't explained why Western Sahara isn't an issue.

    Makes Gaza look good. It's just that it's being done by other Muslims, no propaganda value and nobody's pouring billions into a resistance movement.
    The US is what allows Israel to continue it's brutal oppression and theft.

    The US is what made Israel powerful.

    The US is who has shielded Israel from UN sanctions for it's many crimes.

    US citizens have some responsibility for what Israel has been doing these past decades.

    You can't expect a nation not allowed to have a military to be able to secure it's borders.

  3. Top | #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Israel even provided arms for police in Gaza. The arms were promptly turned over to Hamas.
    Prove this.

  4. Top | #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Israel even provided arms for police in Gaza. The arms were promptly turned over to Hamas.
    Prove this.
    Preferably with a story from the last 20 years... Granted if your logic is "Hamas runs the police, Isreal gave them to police, therefore initial sale was immediate hand-over to Hamas"... That's a face palm right there for you too.

  5. Top | #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    Sometimes we need to put ideology aside and focus on what works, however badly. When there are humanitarian issues and lives at stake we simply have to be pragmatic. Anything else is just pointlessly cruel.

    I think Chomsky has his head in the clouds in this case
    I think you're super deluded on this. The irony is on you. Not me

  6. Top | #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    Hamas is a normal human reaction.

    It is normal to resist oppression.

    It is what you hope for.
    You still haven't explained why Western Sahara isn't an issue.

    Makes Gaza look good. It's just that it's being done by other Muslims, no propaganda value and nobody's pouring billions into a resistance movement.
    The US is what allows Israel to continue it's brutal oppression and theft.

    The US is what made Israel powerful.

    The US is who has shielded Israel from UN sanctions for it's many crimes.

    US citizens have some responsibility for what Israel has been doing these past decades.

    You can't expect a nation not allowed to have a military to be able to secure it's borders.
    This was very true, 15 years ago. Israel today is very independent. It has moved on from the US. It's economy is so strong that it now makes enough money that it can produce most of it's own weapons. It also is more popular today than the US. It was stunning to see an Israeli leader take such a side in the US elections favoring Trump. But the US does not have the influence that we once did:

    https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...-u-s-leverage/

    "But that dependence may be ending. While Israel still benefits greatly from U.S. assistance, security experts and political analysts say that the country has quietly cultivated, and may have achieved, effective autonomy from the United States"

  7. Top | #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    I heard a funny name for left wing Palestine supporters "Green Nazis".

    I do think that a lot of these leftists are truly motivated by antisemitism. Because their one sided vitriolic hatred of Israel is... special.
    This is quite doubtful. Most Westerners who hate Jews, hate Muslims as well. Hatred of Israel does NOT imply hatred of Jews. (Do you think hatred of Hamas implies hatred of Muslims?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    What people hate is oppression and brutality and theft.

    When you hate those things you hate the Israeli government for the past few decades.
    Then they should hate Hamas.
    What makes you think they don't?

    When a big bully is stealing from a small brat and pounding him until his bones break, the urgent need is to stop the bully. Until then, reprimanding the brat is not a priority.

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

    Nearly all of us agree that Israel has the right to defend itself. But it does NOT have the right to steal Palestinian land and to treat the Palestinians as subhumans to be humiliated. Even those of you who regard the Palestinians as subhumans must understand that such Israeli behavior does not promote peace.

  8. Top | #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    The US is what allows Israel to continue it's brutal oppression and theft.

    The US is what made Israel powerful.

    The US is who has shielded Israel from UN sanctions for it's many crimes.

    US citizens have some responsibility for what Israel has been doing these past decades.

    You can't expect a nation not allowed to have a military to be able to secure it's borders.
    This was very true, 15 years ago. Israel today is very independent. It has moved on from the US. It's economy is so strong that it now makes enough money that it can produce most of it's own weapons. It also is more popular today than the US. It was stunning to see an Israeli leader take such a side in the US elections favoring Trump. But the US does not have the influence that we once did:

    https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...-u-s-leverage/

    "But that dependence may be ending. While Israel still benefits greatly from U.S. assistance, security experts and political analysts say that the country has quietly cultivated, and may have achieved, effective autonomy from the United States"
    Having a measure of independence after the US gave you hundreds of billions for free is something any nation would achieve.

    Israel needs the US at the UN.

    Otherwise it could be bled dry for all it's crimes.

  9. Top | #369
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    The Palestinians are screwed. But they have to take some responsibility for this. For whatever reason, they have always refused to develop an effective government that will speak for the Palestinian's benefit. They have always played the victim, relying on fellow Arab states to fight for their rights. This passive aggressive approach caused them to not act when offered good peace plans (Clinton plan, Oslo, and etc.). This approach seemed to work for a short time as the Arab states made peace with Israel contingent upon finding a good solution with the Palestinians. However, time is not on the Palestinian side. And as time has gone on and on: the Arab states have recognized that they have more immediate concerns: countering Iran; the wars in Yemen, Libya and Syria; and economics, diversifying their economy, and stability.

    The Palestinians are weakened by their internal divisions, lack of strategy, and leadership made unpopular via bad governance and corruption. They mostly say just say "no". Just saying no isn't going to get them anything. And their allies, the Arab states, have moved on. Palestinians are no longer their priority. I'm still optimistic for the Palestinians. But they are going to have to start looking out for their own, rather than rely on allies or the UN to save them.

  10. Top | #370
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    Palestinian leaders have been targeted and assassinated by Israel.

    They have been isolated from the world, thrown off their land, and packed into little reservations.

    Sound familiar?

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