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Thread: Roe v Wade is on deck

  1. Top | #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    The force is not on the woman.

    She can perform an abortion on herself. Maybe absurd but she has that freedom if she has any privacy. If the state allows any privacy it allows a woman to do anything to her body.

    The force is on other people besides the woman.

    They can't perform an abortion for her.

    The end result for most woman would be to not have an abortion but it is not the state telling a woman what she can do with her body in private.
    You have a right to a defense in the court... you just don't have a right to a lawyer.
    The lawyer can't use any defense they want.

    They can't do whatever they want.

    The defense has to be one recognized in the law.

    The lawyer has limitations.

  2. Top | #262
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    What lawyer? No doctor, no lawyer. If a woman can perform a medical procedure on herself alone, she can easily defend herself in court alone.

  3. Top | #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    The force is not on the woman.

    She can perform an abortion on herself. Maybe absurd but she has that freedom if she has any privacy. If the state allows any privacy it allows a woman to do anything to her body.

    The force is on other people besides the woman.

    They can't perform an abortion for her.

    The end result for most woman would be to not have an abortion but it is not the state telling a woman what she can do with her body in private.
    Except that in these draconian places, getting a couple OTC or easily available prescription medications and combining them off label to produce that outcome all on your own is still considered illegal.
    What are you talking about?

    When you say easily available you mean prescription hormonal birth control?

    I have no idea what OTC drugs you need.

    I think we need to do research on self induced abortion and see how far along would be safe.

    Then we need to allow doctors to prescribe drugs that allow woman to do it safely.

  4. Top | #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    What lawyer? No doctor, no lawyer. If a woman can perform a medical procedure on herself alone, she can easily defend herself in court alone.
    The doctor can fix her ruptured appendix. He just can't do everything. Like remove her head.

    Even if she demands it.

    A doctor can do all things to save her from imminent death or disability.

  5. Top | #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    What lawyer? No doctor, no lawyer. If a woman can perform a medical procedure on herself alone, she can easily defend herself in court alone.
    The doctor can fix her ruptured appendix. He just can't do everything. Like remove her head.

    Even if she demands it.

    A doctor can do all things to save her from imminent death or disability.
    So you just want to arbitrarily limit a woman's ability to see a doctor.

  6. Top | #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    What lawyer? No doctor, no lawyer. If a woman can perform a medical procedure on herself alone, she can easily defend herself in court alone.
    The doctor can fix her ruptured appendix. He just can't do everything. Like remove her head.

    Even if she demands it.

    A doctor can do all things to save her from imminent death or disability.
    So you just want to arbitrarily limit a woman's ability to see a doctor.
    They can see all the doctors they want to.

    The doctors have limits.

    They can't cut off her head if she demands it.

  7. Top | #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post

    You make a very valid point.

    I am well aware of the rarity of third semester abortions and the reasons that almost all are performed. I *do* have a concern that the state or an individual could compel an abortion in the third trimester. It has happened in China. I've had a friend who was compelled to have an earlier unwanted abortion by her then spouse. I tend to look for unintended worst case scenarios...
    I would further agree that third trimester abortions must be allowed to happen, also for whatever reason. Of course most of this arises from my decidedly abnormal view that "life" of the kind that is invoked in the sentence "life must be cherished and respected" doesn't start until the people to be involved with caring and nurturing for that specific life have consented to do so. As humans are brought to consummate their consent to this being a life, through their contribution of care (and through the gateway of consent of primary care givers), that is when a life becomes invested. To terminate a life with agency so vested with the consent of the involved, would make those involved "humans who have betrayed the trust of a life they consented to care for".

    Now, maybe it's just me but that is fairly clearly in the circle of "bad faith".

    It is that moment of consent that makes all the difference in the world, not for sex but for keeping it.

    I'm still going to maintain that the geometry of that moment of consent says a lot of the person making that decision. It's undeniably their decision as the primary caregiver at that stage to not consent, whatever that means to the parasitic life inside them.
    I definitely believe that third trimester abortions must be allowed.

    My issue is that the must NOT be compelled, nor at any stage of pregnancy.

    The ONLY valid decision maker is the girl or woman herself, except in instances where she is medically so compromised that she cannot make such a decision (I.E. she's comatose or something similar) and where terminating the pregnancy is less traumatic than continuing to birth. Medical providers can ethically decline to perform an abortion but they cannot compel an abortion if the mother is able to participate in decision making. (Example where a medical provider could make the decision: The mother has been so injured in an accident that she is unconscious and that to attempt to continue the pregnancy would harm her)

    Other parents and prospective caregivers have a say in whether they wish to raise the child but not in whether the child is born.

    A fetus is not a parasite.

    A parasite is an organism that lives in or on an organism of another species (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.

  8. Top | #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    So you just want to arbitrarily limit a woman's ability to see a doctor.
    They can see all the doctors they want to.

    The doctors have limits.

    They can't cut off her head if she demands it.
    Do you care to provide a better argument? She can't get cancer treatment because doctors can't cut of her head if she demands it either. She can't get birth control either because of decapitation limitations, no matter much she wants her head cut off.

  9. Top | #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post

    You make a very valid point.

    I am well aware of the rarity of third semester abortions and the reasons that almost all are performed. I *do* have a concern that the state or an individual could compel an abortion in the third trimester. It has happened in China. I've had a friend who was compelled to have an earlier unwanted abortion by her then spouse. I tend to look for unintended worst case scenarios...
    I would further agree that third trimester abortions must be allowed to happen, also for whatever reason. Of course most of this arises from my decidedly abnormal view that "life" of the kind that is invoked in the sentence "life must be cherished and respected" doesn't start until the people to be involved with caring and nurturing for that specific life have consented to do so. As humans are brought to consummate their consent to this being a life, through their contribution of care (and through the gateway of consent of primary care givers), that is when a life becomes invested. To terminate a life with agency so vested with the consent of the involved, would make those involved "humans who have betrayed the trust of a life they consented to care for".

    Now, maybe it's just me but that is fairly clearly in the circle of "bad faith".

    It is that moment of consent that makes all the difference in the world, not for sex but for keeping it.

    I'm still going to maintain that the geometry of that moment of consent says a lot of the person making that decision. It's undeniably their decision as the primary caregiver at that stage to not consent, whatever that means to the parasitic life inside them.
    I definitely believe that third trimester abortions must be allowed.

    My issue is that the must NOT be compelled, nor at any stage of pregnancy.

    The ONLY valid decision maker is the girl or woman herself, except in instances where she is medically so compromised that she cannot make such a decision (I.E. she's comatose or something similar) and where terminating the pregnancy is less traumatic than continuing to birth. Medical providers can ethically decline to perform an abortion but they cannot compel an abortion if the mother is able to participate in decision making. (Example where a medical provider could make the decision: The mother has been so injured in an accident that she is unconscious and that to attempt to continue the pregnancy would harm her)

    Other parents and prospective caregivers have a say in whether they wish to raise the child but not in whether the child is born.

    A fetus is not a parasite.

    A parasite is an organism that lives in or on an organism of another species (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.
    A fetus is not a parasite. A fetus IS parasitic. As I have said, the consent must come at all times to give care through the primary care giver. If they do not consent to additional buy-in of consent, no additional buy-in can be made. Another party, not even the husband, may not be considered until their consent is accepted by the primary party, or until it is born and the mother is no longer THE primary caregiver. That can only happen, at a minimum, when the mother decides she is keeping it. That decision creates the relationship of faith and trust and opens the door to additional, if tentative, investiture.

    But make no mistake, all fetal life is parasitic until the event of consent happens.

  10. Top | #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    The force is not on the woman.

    She can perform an abortion on herself. Maybe absurd but she has that freedom if she has any privacy. If the state allows any privacy it allows a woman to do anything to her body.

    The force is on other people besides the woman.

    They can't perform an abortion for her.

    The end result for most woman would be to not have an abortion but it is not the state telling a woman what she can do with her body in private.
    Except that in these draconian places, getting a couple OTC or easily available prescription medications and combining them off label to produce that outcome all on your own is still considered illegal.
    What are you talking about?

    When you say easily available you mean prescription hormonal birth control?

    I have no idea what OTC drugs you need.

    I think we need to do research on self induced abortion and see how far along would be safe.

    Then we need to allow doctors to prescribe drugs that allow woman to do it safely.
    As per the Wiki article, Mifepristone, a medication often used for the treatment of uterine fibroids, also known as RU-486, is a medication typically used in combination with misoprostol, a common ulcer medication, to terminate pregnancies.

    So, all you have to do, as a woman, is seek out treatments for fibroids and then get treatment for a stomach ulcer. These are medications that are available, on their own, generally without a prescription.

    It is common for organizations to provide the components to women in jurisdictions where actual prescriptions for the pill are forbidden.

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