Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 57

Thread: Why does the electron orbit the nucleus?

  1. Top | #41
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן
    Posts
    11,713
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    29,619
    Rep Power
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Yet the author is saying that firing single photons does not produce an interference pattern?
    A single photon cannot produce a pattern of any kind, let alone behave collectively. It's like any sort of data. A single data point doesn't form a pattern. You need lots of data points to reveal a pattern that might reflect a property of the source of the data.
    My question is more related to the author's comment: ''So it seems that photons are really particles that behave collectively like waves'' - which seems to be at odds with other interpretations.

  2. Top | #42
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    out on a limb
    Posts
    2,567
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Yet the author is saying that firing single photons does not produce an interference pattern?
    A single photon cannot produce a pattern of any kind, let alone behave collectively. It's like any sort of data. A single data point doesn't form a pattern. You need lots of data points to reveal a pattern that might reflect a property of the source of the data.
    My question is more related to the author's comment: ''So it seems that photons are really particles that behave collectively like waves'' - which seems to be at odds with other interpretations.
    I see. I think if I was the author I would have stated it as "particles that, collectively, behave like waves." So it's not mistaken to mean that they behave in a coordinated manner. Although that's very tempting to deduce given that it's usually interpreted as a pattern produced when one photon interferes with another.

  3. Top | #43
    Contributor repoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,905
    Archived
    2,280
    Total Posts
    10,185
    Rep Power
    81
    I wonder if this guy has a good explanation to the OP, because his explanation to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is great here. Explained why eternal electrons have a infinitesimally exact mass for example, whereas fleeting W bosons have varying masses.


  4. Top | #44
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    2,739
    Archived
    7,585
    Total Posts
    10,324
    Rep Power
    73
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowy Man View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    What about this interpretation?

    Quote:
    ''Just to clarify one point, if a single photon is fired at the two slits, an interference pattern will not appear. Rather, a single 'blip' will appear on the screen, which indicates that the photon is not a wave, but rather a particle. If a large number of photons are fired at the slits,an interference pattern will begin to appear. So it seems that photons are really particles that behave collectively like waves. The same reasoning applies to all particles, not just photons.''
    I don’t like the use of the word “collectively” here. It’s not that an electron interferes with other electrons. It’s more that its wave-like properties interact with the two slits to generate the probability pattern of where the particles will be detected.
    Yet the author is saying that firing single photons does not produce an interference pattern?
    Single photons make single detections. But if you collect enough photons you’ll see a pattern form even if the photons arrive independently of each other.

    I used to do ultraviolet spectroscopy with photon counting detectors so I experienced this all the time.

  5. Top | #45
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    out on a limb
    Posts
    2,567
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowy Man View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Yet the author is saying that firing single photons does not produce an interference pattern?
    Single photons make single detections. But if you collect enough photons you’ll see a pattern form even if the photons arrive independently of each other.

    I used to do ultraviolet spectroscopy with photon counting detectors so I experienced this all the time.
    Something that continues to bug me about the double slit experiment is how does one go about detecting which slit a photon goes through without physically influencing the path of the photon? The only experiment I'm aware of that doesn't by design is the delayed quantum erasure which generates an entangled duplicate photon that goes on to detectors.

  6. Top | #46
    Squadron Leader
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Land of Smiles
    Posts
    1,495
    Rep Power
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    I see. I think if I was the author I would have stated it as "particles that, collectively, behave like waves."
    But isn't the whole point of the single photon 2-slit experiment that even a single photon behaves like a wave?

  7. Top | #47
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן
    Posts
    11,713
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    29,619
    Rep Power
    80
    And the difference being the presence or absence of a detector/observer.

  8. Top | #48
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Located 100 miles east of A in America
    Posts
    31,791
    Archived
    42,473
    Total Posts
    74,264
    Rep Power
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowy Man View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Yet the author is saying that firing single photons does not produce an interference pattern?
    Single photons make single detections. But if you collect enough photons you’ll see a pattern form even if the photons arrive independently of each other.

    I used to do ultraviolet spectroscopy with photon counting detectors so I experienced this all the time.
    Something that continues to bug me about the double slit experiment is how does one go about detecting which slit a photon goes through without physically influencing the path of the photon? The only experiment I'm aware of that doesn't by design is the delayed quantum erasure which generates an entangled duplicate photon that goes on to detectors.
    Is it that important which slit it goes through? The point is that instead of creating two distinct groups of impacts, it creates an interference pattern, even one by one. It isn't exactly what one would think would happen, but this stuff has been demonstrated repeatedly. It is well beyond established. Photons (massless), electrons (tiny tiny mass), buckyballs (each consisting of 60 Carbon atoms), and more recently whatever the heck you want to call C707H260F908N16S53Zn4.

    Subatomic "particles" to very large molecules do this, whether you do it in a large beam or one at a time.

  9. Top | #49
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    out on a limb
    Posts
    2,567
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post

    Something that continues to bug me about the double slit experiment is how does one go about detecting which slit a photon goes through without physically influencing the path of the photon? The only experiment I'm aware of that doesn't by design is the delayed quantum erasure which generates an entangled duplicate photon that goes on to detectors.
    Is it that important which slit it goes through?
    Yes, according to the purported observer effect.
    An especially unusual version of the observer effect occurs in quantum mechanics, as best demonstrated by the double-slit experiment. Physicists have found that even passive observation of quantum phenomena (by changing the test apparatus and passively "ruling out" all but one possibility) can actually change the measured result. Despite the "observer" in this experiment being an electronic detector—possibly due to the assumption that the word "observer" implies a person—its results have led to the popular belief that a conscious mind can directly affect reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    The point is that instead of creating two distinct groups of impacts, it creates an interference pattern, even one by one. It isn't exactly what one would think would happen, but this stuff has been demonstrated repeatedly. It is well beyond established. Photons (massless), electrons (tiny tiny mass), buckyballs (each consisting of 60 Carbon atoms), and more recently whatever the heck you want to call C707H260F908N16S53Zn4.

    Subatomic "particles" to very large molecules do this, whether you do it in a large beam or one at a time.
    I recognize all that but it doesn't address my question about the use of detectors. Supposedly the observer effect would apply to those examples as well.

  10. Top | #50
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    out on a limb
    Posts
    2,567
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    I see. I think if I was the author I would have stated it as "particles that, collectively, behave like waves."
    But isn't the whole point of the single photon 2-slit experiment that even a single photon behaves like a wave?
    But does it involve the interaction of these individual photons which arrive at different times, as might be implied under certain uses of the term "collectively"? Or is each photon exhibiting evidence of wave-like behavior even though acting on its own? In other words, is the collective pattern produced by many individual photons actually due to the interference of waves? Or is it more like a Moiré pattern?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •