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Thread: The heartbreaking reality of a teenage girl's sex life

  1. Top | #31
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    Excuse me? I literally wrote in the quoted post that my point wasn't to sympathize with criminals over their victims. But teaching a young boy to abuse women is a crime against him as well as his future victims. It's no kind of life to live.
    Okay... sure, technically. But about 95% of the content in your post was focused on the disservice and trauma that boys and men face when they get caught and punished for abusing women.

    Can you imagine the response if you'd said Well, yeah. Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a racist is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught. We may not teach white people how to stay off out of jail for killing black people, but there is no forgiveness, no end to the punishment, when one is on it. An automatic life sentence that will determine employment and domicile for the rest of your life. If you do not wind up an overt criminal, you still have relationships in your life that are based on violence instead of love and respect, a lonely place. So we do no favors to anyone when we do not teach our children, of any race, the most basic ideas about racism and respect.

    I mean, seriously. "I'm not blaming the victim but....really, the man who abuses women is a victim too, right"?
    Well, yeah, I think it's a crime to raise your children as racists, too. You don't?
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  2. Top | #32
    Might be a replicant Emily Lake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    Excuse me? I literally wrote in the quoted post that my point wasn't to sympathize with criminals over their victims. But teaching a young boy to abuse women is a crime against him as well as his future victims. It's no kind of life to live.
    Okay... sure, technically. But about 95% of the content in your post was focused on the disservice and trauma that boys and men face when they get caught and punished for abusing women.

    Can you imagine the response if you'd said Well, yeah. Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a racist is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught. We may not teach white people how to stay off out of jail for killing black people, but there is no forgiveness, no end to the punishment, when one is on it. An automatic life sentence that will determine employment and domicile for the rest of your life. If you do not wind up an overt criminal, you still have relationships in your life that are based on violence instead of love and respect, a lonely place. So we do no favors to anyone when we do not teach our children, of any race, the most basic ideas about racism and respect.

    I mean, seriously. "I'm not blaming the victim but....really, the man who abuses women is a victim too, right"?
    Well, yeah, I think it's a crime to raise your children as racists, too. You don't?
    Okay then, I suppose. Let's keep on viewing criminals as poor oppressed victims I guess...

  3. Top | #33
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    Well, yeah, I think it's a crime to raise your children as racists, too. You don't?
    Okay then, I suppose. Let's keep on viewing criminals as poor oppressed victims I guess...
    Oppressed? No. Victims? Yes, if they were taught by those with the reponsibility of raising them that their crimes were the right and acceptable way to behave. Toxic masculinity is violence, often literally, and it wraps everyone it touches with a life of misery and mistrust.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  4. Top | #34
    Might be a replicant Emily Lake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    Well, yeah, I think it's a crime to raise your children as racists, too. You don't?
    Okay then, I suppose. Let's keep on viewing criminals as poor oppressed victims I guess...
    Oppressed? No. Victims? Yes, if they were taught by those with the reponsibility of raising them that their crimes were the right and acceptable way to behave. Toxic masculinity is violence, often literally, and it wraps everyone it touches with a life of misery and mistrust.
    {deep breath} Okay, I'm going to step back. I'm angry and I'm fed up to the hilt with a huge amount of what is happening to women - both in developed nations where our rights are being rolled back and women are being put in harms way, and in undeveloped nations where the oppression and misogyny is completely abhorrent.

    I intellectually get what you're trying to say... but emotionally, no, I just can't. I really can't play the "nice compliant woman" role when the perpetrators of violence against women are being viewed as the victims.

    Yes, we need to teach children better. But FFS, can we at least start by actually punishing the adults committing the crimes? Because I am really struggling with your approach. I'm really struggling with the entire premise that we should focus on teaching young boys not to abuse girls... so that those boys have better lives. I mean, I just... I just can't, Poli.

  5. Top | #35
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Oppressed? No. Victims? Yes, if they were taught by those with the reponsibility of raising them that their crimes were the right and acceptable way to behave. Toxic masculinity is violence, often literally, and it wraps everyone it touches with a life of misery and mistrust.
    {deep breath} Okay, I'm going to step back. I'm angry and I'm fed up to the hilt with a huge amount of what is happening to women - both in developed nations where our rights are being rolled back and women are being put in harms way, and in undeveloped nations where the oppression and misogyny is completely abhorrent.

    I intellectually get what you're trying to say... but emotionally, no, I just can't. I really can't play the "nice compliant woman" role when the perpetrators of violence against women are being viewed as the victims.

    Yes, we need to teach children better. But FFS, can we at least start by actually punishing the adults committing the crimes? Because I am really struggling with your approach. I'm really struggling with the entire premise that we should focus on teaching young boys not to abuse girls... so that those boys have better lives. I mean, I just... I just can't, Poli.
    For god's sake, I was just agreeing with Toni's point. I said nothing about that being the only thing we should focus on.

    But I do think that if we aren't teaching better lessons to young men, nothing is going to change. And if people think they are doing their sons a favor by protecting an ideology of male privilege, they're wrong, and the path they're on will hurt everyone, the boys themselves included.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  6. Top | #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    Excuse me? I literally wrote in the quoted post that my point wasn't to sympathize with criminals over their victims. But teaching a young boy to abuse women is a crime against him as well as his future victims. It's no kind of life to live.
    Okay... sure, technically. But about 95% of the content in your post was focused on the disservice and trauma that boys and men face when they get caught and punished for abusing women.

    Can you imagine the response if you'd said Well, yeah. Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a racist is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught. We may not teach white people how to stay off out of jail for killing black people, but there is no forgiveness, no end to the punishment, when one is on it. An automatic life sentence that will determine employment and domicile for the rest of your life. If you do not wind up an overt criminal, you still have relationships in your life that are based on violence instead of love and respect, a lonely place. So we do no favors to anyone when we do not teach our children, of any race, the most basic ideas about racism and respect.

    I mean, seriously. "I'm not blaming the victim but....really, the man who abuses women is a victim too, right"?
    I get the irony of a thread that was started supposedly about the terrible choices regarding sex facing young girls today has morphed into sympathizing with men. I'd really like to get more men than Politesse to participate and discuss the emotional ramifications of such a system as is described in the OP on boys and men as well as girls. Politesse has actually done that--and I agree. People who abuse other people are not happy, healthy individuals. Boys who grow up believing that sex is not supposed to be enjoyed by girls but is supposed to be provided by and endured by girls for the gratification of boys are growing up with some pretty messed up ideas that very, very obviously are harmful to girls. But I think that these ideas are very harmful to boys, as well. After all, if sex were only about reproduction, this wouldn't be an issue. Women would have an estrus cycle and that's the only time they'd be available for sex. If sex were only about orgasms, then people could just masturbate. Or combine: Females would only engage in sex during the right time of their estrus cycle. Males would masturbate unless/until they could successfully mate with a female in estrus. But that's not how humans do sex. There's more to sex than just reproduction or orgasm. There is intimacy, bonding, often love and affection. Joy, even. But in a society where males are increasingly being socialized through porn and/or messed up family dynamics that females exist to provide males with pleasure (and progeny if/when the males want) at the expense of their own pain and degradation simply to please males---females aren't the only losers in that game. I think they are the main losers but they aren't the only ones. Males also lose out on what is a significant part of a relationship.

    I've known enough abusers in my day to fully understand that they are not happy or healthy people. I certainly have much, much, much more sympathy with their victims than I do with the abusers. But I also think that the only way to convince people to change, to quit abusing other people is to help them understand what is in it for them---more happiness, healthier relationships. Sadly enough, for people who abuse other people, the capacity to empathize with victims is not enough, if it exists at all.

  7. Top | #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    I don’t disagree….but why do so many men blame female rape victims?
    Really ? I don’t think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Outage against women who stand up for themselves? Or attack women for virtually any instance when women speak out against misogyny?
    Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    FB is a known cesspool for anything political but the comments from men in response to the withdrawal from swim trials by Australian swimmer Maddie Groves who called out misogynists and ‘perverts’ as the reason she was quitting are just beyond the pale.
    Anonymous trolls on Facebook are not the real world. I’ve never even heard of Maddie Groves either.

  8. Top | #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    Really ? I don’t think so.



    Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    FB is a known cesspool for anything political but the comments from men in response to the withdrawal from swim trials by Australian swimmer Maddie Groves who called out misogynists and ‘perverts’ as the reason she was quitting are just beyond the pale.
    Anonymous trolls on Facebook are not the real world. I’ve never even heard of Maddie Groves either.
    There are plenty of people who blame women for being raped. It is so ubiquitous that laws have been changed to prevent rape victims from being questioned about their sex lives in court.

    I had also not heard of Maddie Groves but then, I don't follow much sports.

    BTW, thanks for starting this thread. I think it's a really important topic.

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