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Thread: Does Drug Development Require Profit?

  1. Top | #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    You utterly missed the point.

    Of course what you describe is trivial. What's not trivial is getting the money in in the first place. My point about Enron was keeping costs off the books, which is what you're trying to do here.
    Utter bollocks. The Medicare budget is published yearly. The IRS budget is published yearly. You admit the cost is trivial yet you continue to make a mountain out of this molehill.
    You're not addressing the point at all.

  2. Top | #32
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    You utterly missed the point.

    Of course what you describe is trivial. What's not trivial is getting the money in in the first place. My point about Enron was keeping costs off the books, which is what you're trying to do here.
    Utter bollocks. The Medicare budget is published yearly. The IRS budget is published yearly. You admit the cost is trivial yet you continue to make a mountain out of this molehill.
    You're not addressing the point at all.
    Really? What is the point.
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

    Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor but because we can't satisfy the rich.

  3. Top | #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    The existence of drug companies doesn't stop the government from doing it.

    If government can do an adequate job they should simply demonstrate they can by doing it.
    Which I think we should - needs to get pastt the barrier of funding that is lobbied hard against by …. Big pharma.
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    The government could easily do it.

    And do it cheaper.

    The government is prevented from doing it by the Congress.

    And the Congress is bribed to not do it by the entire corporate machinery that wants a highly profitable private business to get insider information from and to invest in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    I don’t think we need to close down all drug companies, just advocating to make the budget include a government funded lab as a player in the game.
    You know, the sheer parochialism in these responses to LP's point is a testament to the enormous effectiveness of for-profit drug development and to the unintended consequences of pursuing a non-profit drug development strategy. What you guys are saying is mush-headed. Lobbying hard by Big pharma does not and cannot stop government from doing an adequate job; the government is not prevented from doing it by the Congress since the Congress has negligible power to stop the government from doing exactly as it pleases; and the budget of government already includes many government funded labs as players in the game.

    The reason you guys believe what you said, in spite of its utter disconnect from reality, is that you guys are taking for granted that "government" means the United States government. Why would you do that? Well, duh, why wouldn't you take that for granted? Nearly all other countries are bit-players or non-players.

    But the prevailing situation, where a hugely disproportionate fraction of drug research takes place in the U.S. and is paid for by American taxpayers and American sick people, thereby massively subsidizing the future health-care of the large majority of the world population who will thereby get new drugs they aren't paying to discover, is not a law of nature. It's just a mechanical consequence of the different drug development strategies different governments have chosen. Most governments are perfectly content to have their populations free-ride on the American drug-development juggernaut.

    Switzerland and a few other countries are doing a decent job of funding their government research labs well enough to carry their share of the burden; they've already proven that government can do an adequate job without the profit motive. But you're glossing over the huge difference in practice separating government can from government will. Americans aren't willing to subsidize the rest of the world up the wazoo because we're a uniquely unselfish people. We do it because the incentive structure built into our for-profit drug development strategy makes it inevitable. So why in the name of Cthulhu would you imagine that if we refocus our strategy on non-profit development, we'll do it like Switzerland instead of like, say, France? Why wouldn't you expect Americans, suddenly given the option of paying reasonable drug prices for government-developed drugs, to selfishly follow the dictates of game theory, cut back on new drug research, make like nearly everybody else in the world, and sponge off the Swiss?

  4. Top | #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    You're not addressing the point at all.
    Really? What is the point.
    You're not addressing the financial benefit of having your collections department off the books.

  5. Top | #35
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    You're not addressing the point at all.
    Really? What is the point.
    You're not addressing the financial benefit of having your collections department off the books.
    The collections department is on a differant set of books that is available to the public.
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

    Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor but because we can't satisfy the rich.

  6. Top | #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    You're not addressing the financial benefit of having your collections department off the books.
    The collections department is on a differant set of books that is available to the public.
    IKR? But Oversight Allergies and a fear of Hemophilia among the wealthy bas prescribed a different course.

  7. Top | #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    You're not addressing the financial benefit of having your collections department off the books.
    The collections department is on a differant set of books that is available to the public.
    The point is you aren't counting collections cost against the cost of providing the healthcare. You should be counting it, though.

  8. Top | #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    You're not addressing the financial benefit of having your collections department off the books.
    The collections department is on a differant set of books that is available to the public.
    The point is you aren't counting collections cost against the cost of providing the healthcare. You should be counting it, though.
    Collection costs pay for themselves.

    Or you wouldn't do it.

  9. Top | #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    The point is you aren't counting collections cost against the cost of providing the healthcare. You should be counting it, though.
    Collection costs pay for themselves.

    Or you wouldn't do it.
    Collection costs may eat past the margin though. Regardless, there are no collections costs when it comes from a single payer...

  10. Top | #40
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    You're not addressing the financial benefit of having your collections department off the books.
    The collections department is on a differant set of books that is available to the public.
    The point is you aren't counting collections cost against the cost of providing the healthcare. You should be counting it, though.
    You've already admitted it was trivial. Why are you making a mountain out of a molehill?
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

    Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor but because we can't satisfy the rich.

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