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Thread: Gender-critical views in England

  1. Top | #11
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J842P View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    So we're supposed to be always critical of gender, never of race, always of government, and never propagandistic received histories. Have I got the right of it?
    No, you just made that up right now, whole-cloth. It sounds like a position you would like to be arguing against not one anyone is espousing. At least not here.
    It was sarcasm. At the risk of killing a joke by explaining it, I find it quite humorous that British fascists are fighting angry legal battles for the right to be "gender-critical", at the exact same time American fascists are fighting angry legal battles for the right to censor critical race theory clean out of existence. Likewise, on both sides of the ocean conservatives tend to frame themselves as bravely anti-elite and anti-government, but simultaneously want a very narrow and triumphalist vision of history to be the only one taught in classrooms.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  2. Top | #12
    Might be a replicant Emily Lake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    I thought "gender-critical" was supposed to be a dogwhistle for strict gender-binary views?
    Nope. It's being critical that a person's internal perception of themselves to be something other than the sex that they actually are somehow actually makes them meaningfully the opposite sex... and entitles them to be treated as if they're indistinguishable from the opposite sex.

    The straightforward version is: Transwomen are not actually women at all, they're still men, they're just men who like to present themselves as women. Transmen are not actually men at all, they're still women, they're just women who like to present themselves as men.

    Most gender critical people are fairly strongly opposed to the entire concept of gender roles, gender stereotypes, and gendered divisions (where gender implies the socially constructed set of assumptions based on perceived biological sex). We (because I also hold that view) tend to think that a boy who likes pink and dolls and ponies should be allowed to like pink and dolls and ponies while still being just as much of a boy as the boy who likes blue and trucks and toy guns. Gender stereotypes are considered highly regressive and confining... and in absolutely no way at all EVER should "gender" override the realities of biological sex.

    The whole point of being gender critical is that "gender" is NOT binary, because it's NOT REAL. All of the trappings of femininity being adopted by trans-identified males are caricatures of womanhood, and don't have anything to do with womanhood at all. Same in reverse for masculinity and trans-identified females.

    Gender critical people are generally opposed to the implicit reinforcement of sex-based stereotypes that comes along with current transgender ideology. Just because a pubescent boy is uncomfortable in his body, and worried about physical development, and wants to hold on to the lack of responsibility of being a child doesn't make him any less of a boy. If that boy likes stereotypically "girly" things, that should be okay, it should be perfectly acceptable, because those likes and dislikes, those preferences, and modes of expression are NOT what makes him a boy in the first place. He shouldn't be expected to conform to a ridiculous stereotype of "manhood" in order to be considered a man.

    A person is a boy or a girl, a man or a woman, on the basis of their biological sex... and nothing else. What they like to do, their temperament, their clothing and color preferences, how aggressive or passive they are - these are personality traits, not recipes.

    And with that in mind, some areas of life are segregated on the basis of biological sex, and most of those segregations exist for good reason. Females of the human species have been fucked over and mistreated for eons, and we continue to be. Not nearly as much in the developed world, but even here we face significant levels of domestic violence and sexual crimes. We have different biological realities than males do. So it's important that we have access to female-only spaces, just as men should have access to male-only spaces.

    Males shouldn't be placed in female prisons as a general rule - their feelings about their person gender identity should not override that. The same is true for domestic violence and rape shelters, sports, and even locker rooms and changing rooms. People should have the right to refuse consent to being naked in front of members of the opposite sex, and should have the right to refuse to consent to having members of the opposite sex naked in front of them.

  3. Top | #13
    Might be a replicant Emily Lake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by J842P View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    So we're supposed to be always critical of gender, never of race, always of government, and never propagandistic received histories. Have I got the right of it?
    No, you just made that up right now, whole-cloth. It sounds like a position you would like to be arguing against not one anyone is espousing. At least not here.
    It was sarcasm. At the risk of killing a joke by explaining it, I find it quite humorous that British fascists are fighting angry legal battles for the right to be "gender-critical", at the exact same time American fascists are fighting angry legal battles for the right to censor critical race theory clean out of existence. Likewise, on both sides of the ocean conservatives tend to frame themselves as bravely anti-elite and anti-government, but simultaneously want a very narrow and triumphalist vision of history to be the only one taught in classrooms.
    Maybe pay some attention.

    British women are being fired, being deplatformed, being dropped from political office, and even being charged with hate crimes for stating that sex is an innate and immutable quality and that it cannot literally be changed. Maya Forstater lost her job for saying that women are adult human females, and that transwomn aren't women. She lost her job for stating a biological reality. In her first case, the judge told her that her view had no place in civilized society and was a "belief" that shouldn't be tolerated.

    This is an important win for women.

    It's great that you find it funny that Scots had to actually have a serious and contentious poltical BATTLE in order to give rape survivors the right to specify the SEX of their post-rape medical examiner, rather than the GENDER... but women didn't find that funny at all. Especially not the rape survivors whose trauma was actively being mocked as "transphobia" by activists who felt that a young women who had been raped was making them "unsafe" by not wanting to havve her genital examination performed by a person with a penis.

    It's great that you think it's funny that a scottish woman was charged with a hate crime and could face up to two years in prison for posting a picture of a suffragette ribbon on twitter.

    I'm glad that you find it enterntaining that women throughout the UK, Canada, and the US are being harassed, threatened with violence, doxxed, and mocked for wanting to defend their sex-based right to privacy and personal sexual boundaries.

    I'm glad you find it so humorous that rape shelters are being shut down and losing funding because they don't all male-bodied people in when they say the magic words that they "feel like a woman".

    I'm happy you're having such a great time with female inmates being FORCED to share cells and housing with male inmates who haven't even fucking taken hormone therapy, many of whom have histories of violence against women and children. It must be nice for you that the safety and security of those women are being dismissed and ignored, all because some men need to be affirmed about their feelings.

    It's nice that this is all a joke to you. It isn't to me. And it isn't to a whole lot of women who are seeing our rights and our progress steam-rollered by both the right and the left.
    Last edited by Angry Floof; 06-11-2021 at 08:18 PM. Reason: TOU

  4. Top | #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    The whole point of being gender critical is that "gender" is NOT binary, because it's NOT REAL. All of the trappings of femininity being adopted by trans-identified males are caricatures of womanhood, and don't have anything to do with womanhood at all. Same in reverse for masculinity and trans-identified females.
    I wouldn't say gender is not 'real'--in the non-human animal kingdom, zoologists would call it 'sex roles'. I'd say in most cases, gender is simply not relevant. A gender identity is a thought in your head. Men are not stronger and taller than women because of their gender; they are stronger and taller because of their sex. As you say, where we've separated people based on sex, we shouldn't pretend that that gender is some kind of substitute. It isn't. It's irrelevant.

    (Also, some people don't have a 'gender identity'. I don't 'identify' as a man, I just am one.)

  5. Top | #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    American fascists are fighting angry legal battles for the right to censor critical race theory clean out of existence.
    So-called "critical race theory" is just a fancy word for anti-white racism and it is part of left-wing fascist ideology.

    Likewise, on both sides of the ocean conservatives tend to frame themselves as bravely anti-elite and anti-government, but simultaneously want a very narrow and triumphalist vision of history to be the only one taught in classrooms.
    I think it's rather the left that demands a very narrow set of ideas thought. And they want things like their version of "ethnic studies" to permeate all aspects of education, including something as inherently non-ideological as math.
    Seattle Public Schools Will Start Teaching That Math Is Oppressive
    California promotes 'dismantling racism in mathematics' guidance in draft for statewide framework
    In both cases left-wing "educators" (really miseducators) want to push even more left-wing ideology into classrooms, including politicizing math education.

  6. Top | #16
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    It was sarcasm. At the risk of killing a joke by explaining it, I find it quite humorous that British fascists are fighting angry legal battles for the right to be "gender-critical", at the exact same time American fascists are fighting angry legal battles for the right to censor critical race theory clean out of existence. Likewise, on both sides of the ocean conservatives tend to frame themselves as bravely anti-elite and anti-government, but simultaneously want a very narrow and triumphalist vision of history to be the only one taught in classrooms.
    Maybe pay some attention.

    British women are being fired, being deplatformed, being dropped from political office, and even being charged with hate crimes for stating that sex is an innate and immutable quality and that it cannot literally be changed. Maya Forstater lost her job for saying that women are adult human females, and that transwomn aren't women. She lost her job for stating a biological reality. In her first case, the judge told her that her view had no place in civilized society and was a "belief" that shouldn't be tolerated.

    This is an important win for women.

    It's great that you find it funny that Scots had to actually have a serious and contentious poltical BATTLE in order to give rape survivors the right to specify the SEX of their post-rape medical examiner, rather than the GENDER... but women didn't find that funny at all. Especially not the rape survivors whose trauma was actively being mocked as "transphobia" by activists who felt that a young women who had been raped was making them "unsafe" by not wanting to havve her genital examination performed by a person with a penis.

    It's great that you think it's funny that a scottish woman was charged with a hate crime and could face up to two years in prison for posting a picture of a suffragette ribbon on twitter.

    I'm glad that you find it enterntaining that women throughout the UK, Canada, and the US are being harassed, threatened with violence, doxxed, and mocked for wanting to defend their sex-based right to privacy and personal sexual boundaries.

    I'm glad you find it so humorous that rape shelters are being shut down and losing funding because they don't all male-bodied people in when they say the magic words that they "feel like a woman".

    I'm happy you're having such a great time with female inmates being FORCED to share cells and housing with male inmates who haven't even fucking taken hormone therapy, many of whom have histories of violence against women and children. It must be nice for you that the safety and security of those women are being dismissed and ignored, all because some men need to be affirmed about their feelings.

    It's nice that this is all a joke to you. It isn't to me. And it isn't to a whole lot of women who are seeing our rights and our progress steam-rollered by both the right and the left.

    So yeah. Shove your "joke" straight up your privileged sanctimonious ass.
    None of that is a joke. It is all right-wing media nonsense, though.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  7. Top | #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    So we're supposed to be always critical of gender, never of race, always of government, and never propagandistic received histories. Have I got the right of it?
    Dunno what you are talking about.

  8. Top | #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    It was sarcasm. At the risk of killing a joke by explaining it, I find it quite humorous that British fascists are fighting angry legal battles for the right to be "gender-critical", at the exact same time American fascists are fighting angry legal battles for the right to censor critical race theory clean out of existence. Likewise, on both sides of the ocean conservatives tend to frame themselves as bravely anti-elite and anti-government, but simultaneously want a very narrow and triumphalist vision of history to be the only one taught in classrooms.
    Maybe pay some attention.

    British women are being fired, being deplatformed, being dropped from political office, and even being charged with hate crimes for stating that sex is an innate and immutable quality and that it cannot literally be changed. Maya Forstater lost her job for saying that women are adult human females, and that transwomn aren't women. She lost her job for stating a biological reality. In her first case, the judge told her that her view had no place in civilized society and was a "belief" that shouldn't be tolerated.

    This is an important win for women.

    It's great that you find it funny that Scots had to actually have a serious and contentious poltical BATTLE in order to give rape survivors the right to specify the SEX of their post-rape medical examiner, rather than the GENDER... but women didn't find that funny at all. Especially not the rape survivors whose trauma was actively being mocked as "transphobia" by activists who felt that a young women who had been raped was making them "unsafe" by not wanting to havve her genital examination performed by a person with a penis.

    It's great that you think it's funny that a scottish woman was charged with a hate crime and could face up to two years in prison for posting a picture of a suffragette ribbon on twitter.

    I'm glad that you find it enterntaining that women throughout the UK, Canada, and the US are being harassed, threatened with violence, doxxed, and mocked for wanting to defend their sex-based right to privacy and personal sexual boundaries.

    I'm glad you find it so humorous that rape shelters are being shut down and losing funding because they don't all male-bodied people in when they say the magic words that they "feel like a woman".

    I'm happy you're having such a great time with female inmates being FORCED to share cells and housing with male inmates who haven't even fucking taken hormone therapy, many of whom have histories of violence against women and children. It must be nice for you that the safety and security of those women are being dismissed and ignored, all because some men need to be affirmed about their feelings.

    It's nice that this is all a joke to you. It isn't to me. And it isn't to a whole lot of women who are seeing our rights and our progress steam-rollered by both the right and the left.

    So yeah. Shove your "joke" straight up your privileged sanctimonious ass.
    None of that is a joke. It is all right-wing media nonsense, though.

    You really don't know much about gender criticism if you think it is being driven by the right-wing media.

  9. Top | #19
    Might be a replicant Emily Lake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    None of that is a joke. It is all right-wing media nonsense, though.
    What the actual fuck? Are you seriously just dismissing it out of hand and assuming that it's all made-up exaggeration?

    Read some fucking news and don't just roll around in how you believe things ought to be. Unfuckingbelievable.

  10. Top | #20
    Might be a replicant Emily Lake's Avatar
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    Honestly, at this stage of my life, you'd think I'd have become inured to the way that men so often just dismiss women's concerns and women's issues. It doesn't affect them, so who gives a fuck. But I just. keep. being. surprised by the sheer callousness and disregard shown toward women sometimes.

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