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  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowy Man View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    One advantage that women have had over men is that it has become acceptable over the past 100 years or so for women to wear traditionally male clothing while the reverse has not been true. And why not? Why has it been more acceptable for women to embrace 'male' characteristics/behaviors than for men to embrace the feminine? And why are certain things considered 'masculine' but do not require male genitalia or male hormones and why are certain things considered 'feminine' but do not require female reproductive organs/genitalia/hormones? I don't get it. Boys may (or may not) like climbing trees and looking at insects and rocks more commonly than do girls but such activities are not inherently masculine. Nor is enjoying art or cuddling animals or dolls inherently female. Given the opportunity, many boy children will happily play with dolls and stuffed animals, care for them, create imaginative play where the toy plays the part of a character in the child's fantasy. We're comfortable enough with boys doing that with GI Joes and Star Wars figures so why not with teddy bears and baby dolls?
    Because in our patriarchal societies masculine qualities are considered good and feminine ones bad. Why would a man want to adopt bad qualities? It is more respected that a woman might want to become better or stronger, but why would a man want to become worse or weaker? Women do still get criticized for adopting masculine characteristics, but certainly not as much as men get vilified for adopting feminine characteristics.

    You see this in entertainment media, right? Women superheroes or adventurers are basically women doing what men do. Strength is kicking butt and being strong. How many female superheroes do you see using feminine qualities to save the day? It's very rare. The closest I've seen lately is in the movie Wonder Woman, where it was her compassion that led her to saving that village when all the men wanted to pass by without helping. But she still saved the village by being strong and defeated the villain in the end with punching and power.
    Did you see the rappers in my link? They looked pretty tough and I doubt they've been criticized for that, at least not by those who love pop culture.

    I've been reading about gender fluidity all afternoon. Apparently, the cool younger generations get it, but most of us who are over 45 aren't used to seeing men in frilly dresses or people who identify as both genders or no gender. I read their stories. I'm just having a hard time with it. They call gender a social construct because some people have a different combination of sex chromosomes. Still, does every person who identifies as gender fluid/non binary have rare chromosome combinations? If not, is gender fluidity a social construct? Does it matter if we are all able to be tolerant toward's each other, regardless of our differences?

    It's a positive if people stop stereotyping based on sex/gender characteristics.

  2. Top | #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowy Man View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    One advantage that women have had over men is that it has become acceptable over the past 100 years or so for women to wear traditionally male clothing while the reverse has not been true. And why not? Why has it been more acceptable for women to embrace 'male' characteristics/behaviors than for men to embrace the feminine? And why are certain things considered 'masculine' but do not require male genitalia or male hormones and why are certain things considered 'feminine' but do not require female reproductive organs/genitalia/hormones? I don't get it. Boys may (or may not) like climbing trees and looking at insects and rocks more commonly than do girls but such activities are not inherently masculine. Nor is enjoying art or cuddling animals or dolls inherently female. Given the opportunity, many boy children will happily play with dolls and stuffed animals, care for them, create imaginative play where the toy plays the part of a character in the child's fantasy. We're comfortable enough with boys doing that with GI Joes and Star Wars figures so why not with teddy bears and baby dolls?
    Because in our patriarchal societies masculine qualities are considered good and feminine ones bad. Why would a man want to adopt bad qualities? It is more respected that a woman might want to become better or stronger, but why would a man want to become worse or weaker? Women do still get criticized for adopting masculine characteristics, but certainly not as much as men get vilified for adopting feminine characteristics.

    You see this in entertainment media, right? Women superheroes or adventurers are basically women doing what men do. Strength is kicking butt and being strong. How many female superheroes do you see using feminine qualities to save the day? It's very rare. The closest I've seen lately is in the movie Wonder Woman, where it was her compassion that led her to saving that village when all the men wanted to pass by without helping. But she still saved the village by being strong and defeated the villain in the end with punching and power.
    Did you see the rappers in my link? They looked pretty tough and I doubt they've been criticized for that, at least not by those who love pop culture.

    I've been reading about gender fluidity all afternoon. Apparently, the cool younger generations get it, but most of us who are over 45 aren't used to seeing men in frilly dresses or people who identify as both genders or no gender. I read their stories. I'm just having a hard time with it. They call gender a social construct because some people have a different combination of sex chromosomes. Still, does every person who identifies as gender fluid/non binary have rare chromosome combinations? If not, is gender fluidity a social construct? Does it matter if we are all able to be tolerant toward's each other, regardless of our differences?

    It's a positive if people stop stereotyping based on sex/gender characteristics.
    I do think that gender is mostly a social construct. It may be rooted in actual sex differences, but the way we create and perpetuate gender differences is through social and cultural actions. It likely changes over time and will continue to change.

  3. Top | #13
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Floof View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    Sorry to disagree with the they thing.
    Why be sorry? Your opinions don't affect my feelings. If you disagree, you disagree.

    I'm not being hateful when I say this, but why are you telling non-binary people what they should do on this issue?

    They just doesn't work
    For whom? (You mean you, I get it.)

    and I think it might cause more problems for these folks.
    Again not being hateful but truly astounded at this. What in the world makes you think you know more about their problems than they do?

    I have no dislike of anyone, even if I question their claims but I think it's a bit nuts
    Yes, yes, always a respectful line of reasoning to use on people you swear you don't disrespect.

    And that is not hateful, but it is sarcastic, which is not at all the same thing.

    to use a pronoun that is plural to describe someone who is a single individual.
    And you would be wrong about the usage of "they," both contemporary and in history.

    I have read that in some countries, new words have been used for non binary folks. When you tell me that you are a they, it's like saying you have multiple personalities.
    No, it isn't. What a ghastly thing to say. How often do you "think" people have multiple personalities when they're referred to as "they" when gender/sex is not known or in a hypothetical? Do you also suspect multiple personalities are involved then? But you'll pull that horrible accusation out with a straight face when you do know you're talking about an actual person??

    It's not helpful for promoting one's position.
    Not helpful to whom? (And you can say "their" position here. Don't worry, it's just a hypothetical person, not an objectionably real person whose personal information is not actually your business if they don't tell you. And you're not entitled to pull insulting and sophomoric "arguments" out at them even if they do!)
    ...
    I have no problem with the singular use of "they" when the context describes a situation when the gender is unknown. By default there is an uncertainty about the particulars of the person in question. Typically that means it might be a man or a women. So that means the context is some group that cannot be defined as him or her but includes both. The plural form is therefore appropriate and carries some meaning. But in the case where the context concerns one individual there is no rational basis to use the plural "they", or "their". So who it concerns is everyone who uses the English language and follows rules of proper diction. Using "they" to refer to an individual who neither identifies as male or female is dehumanizing simply because it doesn't acknowledge that person's individuality. I think you fail to recognize southernhybrid's genuine respect for non-binary individuals and the discomfort that results from addressing them in this way. I would think that it's a problem within the non-binary community as well. One I'd think they'd want to resolve. And then everyone could breath easier.

  4. Top | #14
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    Yes, it's cultural. Boys used to wear dresses up to a certain age. It's like men used to wear nightgowns, too. You must have seen this kind of thing in old movies and cartoons. Men having nightgowns might even still be a thing sort of on an individual basis or in certain cultures. It's like also pink and blue: pink for girls and blue for boys. This distinction was decided by a corporation one day, like Macy's or one of its competitors. All the other stores followed suit because it became a selling point.

    Regarding the "they" issue...they has been used for a singular person where gender is unknown or simply for convenience in speaking and writing for some time. The usage is human whereas calling someone an "it" would be dehumanizing. The usage of "they" predates all the putting it out there of pronoun labels for persons in Internet profiles etc. One ought not make the mistake of thinking the usage came from this trend as it didn't. The trend is merely using a feature of English that was already evolving.

    My two cents...

  5. Top | #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    Now, I honestly don't care what anyone wears. In fact, it adds to my amusement to see people wearing all kinds of weird outfits, but this article that I'm going to link did make me wonder if identifying with a specific gender will eventually become a thing of the past. But, first, amuse yourself by looking at my link. As a NYTimes subscriber, I am permitted to share 10 articles each month. I think I still have a few left for this month.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/s...r-dresses.html

    “We’re rethinking all of that,” said Will Welch, the editor of GQ. “A guy in Allbirds and a hoodie might be a billionaire. So you can’t make assumptions anymore,” not least about the gender orientation of “those kids in Washington Square Park in dresses.”

    For the 30-ish fashion stylist Mickey Freeman, who has eschewed trousers for some six years, a kilt is a tool for flouting societal constrictions on what constitutes Black male identity. “Most people have an internal directive of how clothes play into a man’s masculinity,” Mr. Freeman wrote in an email. Guys looking to loosen “the internal shackles” of gender presentation may benefit from giving a test run to wearing a garment created without two legs and a zipper.
    The above is just one of many quotes explaining why men want to wear dresses or skirts. As for me, a person who identifies as a very feminine women, I despise dresses, and skirts and haven't worn either in over 20 years. I think they are ugly on adults. But, of course, we all have different tastes when it comes to how we dress. I love jewelry and will wear diamond bracelets with blue jeans. Some people might find that wrong, but as I said before, I don't give a fuck how anyone else dresses and I don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks about how I dress, wear my hair or how much my jewelry sparkles. But, I digress.

    Are men just trying to be different? Is gender identity really becoming more fluid? Why is that? I was once accused of being too assertive to be happy as a nurse when I asked for advice from a career counselor. Seriously? She told me that was a male quality? Really? One can't be feminine and also be assertive? One can't be masculine and also be gentle and caring? That's nuts!

    I'm really trying to understand this non binary thing, but I'm having trouble. Apparently some transgender folks despise it too, according to several articles I read earlier today. And, please, if you must be non binary, pick a pronoun other than they. They implies two people, not one person who identifies as two genders depending on the day. I've heard a neurologist say that there is evidence for transgender, but not for non binary.

    Oh wait, I was talking about men wearing dresses, but it did make me think of how we define gender these days and if the two are related, or if some men just want to have fun wearing women's clothing or getting attention. Some of these men are very masculine in appearance. I know there have always been cross dressers. Okay. No problem, but this is a bit different than that.

    Oh well. There are far more important things to discuss than how men are dressing these days, but I needed a break from that stuff.

    So, if you are a man, would you feel comfortable wearing a dress in public? If you are a woman, do you like wearing dresses, or would you find them attractive on your male friend, or husband? Why do you think that gender identity is becoming more fluid, at least in some areas? Is it a fad, a trend or will it lead to permanent changes in society? Share you opinion. ( I'm not talking about trans women. I'm talking about people who identify as men who enjoy wearing dresses ) We can discuss gender fluidity or we can make that a different discussion. I see gender fluidity as a cultural thing, at least until I am convinced otherwise.
    Based on sociological and anthropological research how we code clothes seem pretty arbitrary. What's natural is to be naked. The moment we put on any clothes we're being, from an evolutionary perspective, weird.

    Personally, I like strict norms. It makes it fun to break them.

    Fun anecdote from the 90'ies of my youth. I was told by a gay friend that I wouldn't dare go out in drag. We went to a gay club. The only place with good music in the 90'ies. Yes, I hate rock music. Anyhoo... I took him up on his challenge. On the way home from the club a group of three gangster thugs came up to us and asked if we were "faggots". This was back in the day when gay bashing was a popular past time by normal people. Before I had a chance to answer my gay friend, (also in drag) told them "yes, we are, what are you going to do about it, losers". So they jumped us. But we whipped their asses good. It's a fond memory from my youth.

  6. Top | #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised) View Post
    Yes, it's cultural. Boys used to wear dresses up to a certain age. It's like men used to wear nightgowns, too. You must have seen this kind of thing in old movies and cartoons. Men having nightgowns might even still be a thing sort of on an individual basis or in certain cultures. It's like also pink and blue: pink for girls and blue for boys. This distinction was decided by a corporation one day, like Macy's or one of its competitors. All the other stores followed suit because it became a selling point.

    Regarding the "they" issue...they has been used for a singular person where gender is unknown or simply for convenience in speaking and writing for some time. The usage is human whereas calling someone an "it" would be dehumanizing. The usage of "they" predates all the putting it out there of pronoun labels for persons in Internet profiles etc. One ought not make the mistake of thinking the usage came from this trend as it didn't. The trend is merely using a feature of English that was already evolving.

    My two cents...
    Oh please. I am certainly not suggesting that non binary folks use the word "it" to describe themselves. I just have a problem using a plural pronoun being used to describe a single person. I think I get what you're saying about the term they being used as a singular in some cases, although even that has always seemed a bit awkward to me, but I don't see how it applies in the case of non binary folks. For example, the other day, the NYTimes had a piece written by a non binary. The Times had to explain that the person preferred to be addressed as they. If the term made sense, the paper wouldn't have to explain that. If there was a new pronoun used for non binary folks, that would make more sense. But, seriously, I've already stated my opinion, I have no desire to argue about it endlessly. It's okay for people to disagree.

    I did find it interesting that some in the trans community object to people who identify as non binary while others consider them a part of the trans community. If it's hard for a trans person to understand a non, I think it's understandable that a straight old woman might also have questions. It's a bit confusing. That's all I'm saying. Btw, the trans folks who were objecting to the nonbinary folks were claiming that they were infringing on the trans community and/or they were just trying to be cool or part of the newest in-group etc.

    But, although it's my own fault for going off topic, I originally was just wondering why so many straight men were suddenly wanting to wear fancy, frilly dresses, not kilts or robes, but things that traditionally were associated with femininity. Obviously, how we dress is cultural and it's changed over time. So, maybe that's all there is to it.

    That got me wondering if gender fluidity is a cultural thing that will become a lot more common in the future. There is a big difference between what is cultural and what is natural. I'm not against cultural identities. I'm just trying to figure things out. I'm not going to treat anyone with prejudice who has an identity that hasn't been common in Western culture. I'm just naturally curious and I'm not one to accept something just because someone tells me it's true.

    So, does anyone have an opinion as to why so many men who identify as male are now interested in wearing very feminine dresses? Is this really about gender or is it an attempt to break down traditional gender rolls and assumptions? Then again, maybe it's just a passing fad. I just thought it was interesting and wanted other opinions.

  7. Top | #17
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    So, does anyone have an opinion as to why so many men who identify as male are now interested in wearing very feminine dresses? Is this really about gender or is it an attempt to break down traditional gender rolls and assumptions? Then again, maybe it's just a passing fad. I just thought it was interesting and wanted other opinions.
    As somebody who has an interest in fashion, here goes my interpretation.

    It's because this was a thing in the 90'ies and now we have a 90'ies fashion retro movement. The 90'ies fashion was all about playing around with stereotypes, male, female, age, materials, and so on. 90'ies fashion was very playful and experimental. For example in the 90'ies Hugo Boss, the manliest brand in the world, made a pinstripe suit (for men) with a skirt instead of trousers.

    I suspect that the 90'ies retro fits well into the woke gender queer movement of the 10's and act as a catalyst.

    We're going to get a lot of guys in long beards in long dresses this summer.

    Brace yourself!

    Me personally... I love it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    Now, I honestly don't care what anyone wears. In fact, it adds to my amusement to see people wearing all kinds of weird outfits, but this article that I'm going to link did make me wonder if identifying with a specific gender will eventually become a thing of the past. But, first, amuse yourself by looking at my link. As a NYTimes subscriber, I am permitted to share 10 articles each month. I think I still have a few left for this month.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/s...r-dresses.html

    “We’re rethinking all of that,” said Will Welch, the editor of GQ. “A guy in Allbirds and a hoodie might be a billionaire. So you can’t make assumptions anymore,” not least about the gender orientation of “those kids in Washington Square Park in dresses.”

    For the 30-ish fashion stylist Mickey Freeman, who has eschewed trousers for some six years, a kilt is a tool for flouting societal constrictions on what constitutes Black male identity. “Most people have an internal directive of how clothes play into a man’s masculinity,” Mr. Freeman wrote in an email. Guys looking to loosen “the internal shackles” of gender presentation may benefit from giving a test run to wearing a garment created without two legs and a zipper.
    The above is just one of many quotes explaining why men want to wear dresses or skirts. As for me, a person who identifies as a very feminine women, I despise dresses, and skirts and haven't worn either in over 20 years. I think they are ugly on adults. But, of course, we all have different tastes when it comes to how we dress. I love jewelry and will wear diamond bracelets with blue jeans. Some people might find that wrong, but as I said before, I don't give a fuck how anyone else dresses and I don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks about how I dress, wear my hair or how much my jewelry sparkles. But, I digress.

    Are men just trying to be different? Is gender identity really becoming more fluid? Why is that? I was once accused of being too assertive to be happy as a nurse when I asked for advice from a career counselor. Seriously? She told me that was a male quality? Really? One can't be feminine and also be assertive? One can't be masculine and also be gentle and caring? That's nuts!

    I'm really trying to understand this non binary thing, but I'm having trouble. Apparently some transgender folks despise it too, according to several articles I read earlier today. And, please, if you must be non binary, pick a pronoun other than they. They implies two people, not one person who identifies as two genders depending on the day. I've heard a neurologist say that there is evidence for transgender, but not for non binary.

    Oh wait, I was talking about men wearing dresses, but it did make me think of how we define gender these days and if the two are related, or if some men just want to have fun wearing women's clothing or getting attention. Some of these men are very masculine in appearance. I know there have always been cross dressers. Okay. No problem, but this is a bit different than that.

    Oh well. There are far more important things to discuss than how men are dressing these days, but I needed a break from that stuff.

    So, if you are a man, would you feel comfortable wearing a dress in public? If you are a woman, do you like wearing dresses, or would you find them attractive on your male friend, or husband? Why do you think that gender identity is becoming more fluid, at least in some areas? Is it a fad, a trend or will it lead to permanent changes in society? Share you opinion. ( I'm not talking about trans women. I'm talking about people who identify as men who enjoy wearing dresses ) We can discuss gender fluidity or we can make that a different discussion. I see gender fluidity as a cultural thing, at least until I am convinced otherwise.
    Based on sociological and anthropological research how we code clothes seem pretty arbitrary. What's natural is to be naked. The moment we put on any clothes we're being, from an evolutionary perspective, weird.

    Personally, I like strict norms. It makes it fun to break them.

    Fun anecdote from the 90'ies of my youth. I was told by a gay friend that I wouldn't dare go out in drag. We went to a gay club. The only place with good music in the 90'ies. Yes, I hate rock music. Anyhoo... I took him up on his challenge. On the way home from the club a group of three gangster thugs came up to us and asked if we were "faggots". This was back in the day when gay bashing was a popular past time by normal people. Before I had a chance to answer my gay friend, (also in drag) told them "yes, we are, what are you going to do about it, losers". So they jumped us. But we whipped their asses good. It's a fond memory from my youth.

    I don't think wearing clothing is weird. We don't have protective fur, feathers etc. to protect our
    very frail skin from the elements. So, to me, wearing clothing is perfectly normal. Plus, I am so cold natured that going without clothing would be torture. Fashion is weird and it does change over time. I just think that clothing and shoes are practical, plus I doubt that most women really want heterosexual men gawking at their genitals. I know I sure don't.

    Plus, as an aside....When working as a home health nurse, I saw far too many naked, boobs, penises, vaginas, etc. I would prefer not to look at naked bodies. It's not a moral thing. I just don't think most naked bodies are pleasing to the eye, especially these days. Please cover up that stuff. .

    It's also not healthy letting our skin be exposed to the sun. It puts one at risk for serious sunburn, and skin cancer, especially if one has fair skin, but even people with darker shades of skin are at a risk of these things, so there are plenty of reasons to wear clothing.

    And in response to your other post.....

    There may be lots of bearded men with dresses in your neck of the woods, but I promise you that won't happen in my very conservative American city. Not that I care. As I said in my initial post, what people wear often amuses me. A few weeks ago, I saw a very cute, young mixed race couple in the grocery store dressed exactly as if they had just stepped out of the 60s. Retro always makes me smile. I don't think we had the same fads in the 90s as you did. But then again, I think most of us tend to remember what was in style during our youthful years. I was a teenager in the mid to late 60s, when things were very different compared to the 90s.

    Whatever floats your boat. I've never been a slave to fashion. I only wear skinny jeans and casual tops, a style I never tire of wearing because they are comfortable and I like the way they look. I wore jeans to work at my last nursing job for years. If a nurse wearing jeans to work is breaking social norms, then I'm guilty.

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    I've had a silly-looking but semi-serious question for some time. This thread gives me an opportunity to ask it.

    Why do men wear trousers, while women wear skirts? Wouldn't the reverse of this be more practical?

    I'm thinking of the differing packaging needs. Trousers, especially if they're tight, flaunt a man's junk. And just as parting one's hair on the left or the right is a cosmetic decision, so men may need to decide which pant-leg to park their convex appendage in. (I've not had these problems since middle age.) Women, being more concave, do not have such issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    I don't think wearing clothing is weird. We don't have protective fur, feathers etc. to protect our
    very frail skin from the elements. So, to me, wearing clothing is perfectly normal. Plus, I am so cold natured that going without clothing would be torture. Fashion is weird and it does change over time.
    Evolution is a slow process. Apart from white people losing some of our skin pigment, not much have happened to our bodies since we left the Rift valley in modern Kenya. Hunter/gatherers from that area don't need clothes for protection. And that's what we've evolved for. Black people actually still excellently adapted for just that climate even if naked. And that's the climate our instincts have evolved for.

    Also, it's a question of what you're used to. Humans are highly adaptable. Swedes spend a lot of time in the cold. We go skinny dipping in the winter and so on. WE get used to it. Once I went diving in Egypt in the winter (10 degrees Celsius). After hours of diving our bodies were severely chilled. When we got out of our wetsuits and were going to dry off, the Egyptians, Americans, French, Vietnamese and Korean in our group looked like they were dying from the cold. The Norwegians, Russians and me were all fine.

    Genetically we're all the same. So it's not genetics. It's just a question of what you're used to.

    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    I just think that clothing and shoes are practical
    What's possibly more practical than being naked? It requires zero effort to get ready in the morning. After we've been swimming naked there's zero wet swimming clothes to bother with.

    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    , plus I doubt that most women really want heterosexual men gawking at their genitals. I know I sure don't.
    Plus, as an aside....When working as a home health nurse, I saw far too many naked, boobs, penises, vaginas, etc. I would prefer not to look at naked bodies. It's not a moral thing. I just don't think most naked bodies are pleasing to the eye, especially these days. Please cover up that stuff. .
    I can assure you that this is a cultural artifact. It's a weird hang-up. I'm from Scandinavia. Northern Europeans (Germanic tribes and Viking regions) have cultures very relaxed about nudity. I regularly go skinny dipping in the Copenhagen harbour during the middle of the day. It's smack in the center of Copenhagen. Nobody cares. Nobody has a problem with it. Nobody is offended. Nobody stops to stare. And more importantly. I'm not alone. Lots of people do it.

    You don't need to spend a lot of time naked together with your family and grand parents in a sauna to get relaxed about it. I'd argue that it's the healthy thing to do. Young people would have a hell of a lot less hang ups about their bodies if they were surrounded by normal people, letting it all hang out.

    South Europeans and Americans are noticeably more neurotic about sex and intimacy than Northern Europeans.

    I don't think this cultural obsession about covering up and hiding your eyes from public sexuality is healthy. It seems to make people really twisted and weird in the head. With all kinds of weird hang ups about sex and sexuality. It seems to make people fearful of both other people as well as their own bodies. From a Scandinavian perspective their behaviour around sex is very odd.

    Me personally, I've stopped having sex with Americans and Italians. Too much weird hang ups and fucked up ideas about what sex is and should be. It too often feels like having sex with a child in an adults body. Even Arab women are more relaxed about their sexuality than Americans. Just my impression from decades of being a slut.

    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    It's also not healthy letting our skin be exposed to the sun. It puts one at risk for serious sunburn, and skin cancer, especially if one has fair skin, but even people with darker shades of skin are at a risk of these things, so there are plenty of reasons to wear clothing.
    Sure. But the face is no less at risk than the rest of the body, and no culture has issues about letting our faces be exposed to the sun. So it's clearly not that.

    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    There may be lots of bearded men with dresses in your neck of the woods, but I promise you that won't happen in my very conservative American city.
    Copenhagen is extremely liberal. Berlin, Amsterdam and Copenhagen is the three most liberal cities I've ever been to in the world. That's why I chose to move to Copenhagen.

    Yeah, we have a lot of bearded men in dresses. It wouldn't get any reaction in these parts. I have a Danish friend here. And ex soldier. An absolutely massive guy. Well over two meters tall and a mountain of muscles. And a big beard. Always wears West African colourful kaftans. So a dress basically. Nobody has ever looked twice. Nobody cares over here.

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