Page 1 of 16 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 160

Thread: Men wearing dresses

  1. Top | #1
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Georgia, US
    Posts
    5,396
    Archived
    3,862
    Total Posts
    9,258
    Rep Power
    84

    Men wearing dresses

    Now, I honestly don't care what anyone wears. In fact, it adds to my amusement to see people wearing all kinds of weird outfits, but this article that I'm going to link did make me wonder if identifying with a specific gender will eventually become a thing of the past. But, first, amuse yourself by looking at my link. As a NYTimes subscriber, I am permitted to share 10 articles each month. I think I still have a few left for this month.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/s...r-dresses.html

    “We’re rethinking all of that,” said Will Welch, the editor of GQ. “A guy in Allbirds and a hoodie might be a billionaire. So you can’t make assumptions anymore,” not least about the gender orientation of “those kids in Washington Square Park in dresses.”

    For the 30-ish fashion stylist Mickey Freeman, who has eschewed trousers for some six years, a kilt is a tool for flouting societal constrictions on what constitutes Black male identity. “Most people have an internal directive of how clothes play into a man’s masculinity,” Mr. Freeman wrote in an email. Guys looking to loosen “the internal shackles” of gender presentation may benefit from giving a test run to wearing a garment created without two legs and a zipper.
    The above is just one of many quotes explaining why men want to wear dresses or skirts. As for me, a person who identifies as a very feminine women, I despise dresses, and skirts and haven't worn either in over 20 years. I think they are ugly on adults. But, of course, we all have different tastes when it comes to how we dress. I love jewelry and will wear diamond bracelets with blue jeans. Some people might find that wrong, but as I said before, I don't give a fuck how anyone else dresses and I don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks about how I dress, wear my hair or how much my jewelry sparkles. But, I digress.

    Are men just trying to be different? Is gender identity really becoming more fluid? Why is that? I was once accused of being too assertive to be happy as a nurse when I asked for advice from a career counselor. Seriously? She told me that was a male quality? Really? One can't be feminine and also be assertive? One can't be masculine and also be gentle and caring? That's nuts!

    I'm really trying to understand this non binary thing, but I'm having trouble. Apparently some transgender folks despise it too, according to several articles I read earlier today. And, please, if you must be non binary, pick a pronoun other than they. They implies two people, not one person who identifies as two genders depending on the day. I've heard a neurologist say that there is evidence for transgender, but not for non binary.

    Oh wait, I was talking about men wearing dresses, but it did make me think of how we define gender these days and if the two are related, or if some men just want to have fun wearing women's clothing or getting attention. Some of these men are very masculine in appearance. I know there have always been cross dressers. Okay. No problem, but this is a bit different than that.

    Oh well. There are far more important things to discuss than how men are dressing these days, but I needed a break from that stuff.

    So, if you are a man, would you feel comfortable wearing a dress in public? If you are a woman, do you like wearing dresses, or would you find them attractive on your male friend, or husband? Why do you think that gender identity is becoming more fluid, at least in some areas? Is it a fad, a trend or will it lead to permanent changes in society? Share you opinion. ( I'm not talking about trans women. I'm talking about people who identify as men who enjoy wearing dresses ) We can discuss gender fluidity or we can make that a different discussion. I see gender fluidity as a cultural thing, at least until I am convinced otherwise.

  2. Top | #2
    Tricksy Leftits Angry Floof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lancre
    Posts
    12,942
    Archived
    14,435
    Total Posts
    27,377
    Rep Power
    74
    FYI, "they" is a perfectly acceptable (in the U.S., for decades at least) form of pronoun to use for whenever he/she becomes problematic due to a) not knowing the sex/gender, b) speaking in hypotheticals, or c) the individual in question does not fall into the narrow and inaccurate though socially acceptable, traditional binary of male/female, and a lot more people fall outside of that narrow binary than you might think, and that's just speaking biologically. We are highly complex, self aware beings who are not just the sum of our biological parts, so there's tons to learn there, too. Just sayin'.

    But I digress. Contemporary acceptance of "they" as a pronoun began with writing even before current events begain raising awareness regarding inclusiveness, in the world as well as in writing. In casual and business writing, "they" is perfectly acceptable and not a grammatical error, and serves to alleviate awkward language of "he/she" and "himself/herself" or when the person is hypothetical or their sex/gender is unknown. I don't know how or if academic or legal standards have adopted this usage of "they," but I'm guessing probably not because those areas of writing standards change at a slower pace than the more dynamic business or casual writing.

    In business, a company or client might have their own style guide that includes a writing preference for dealing with cumbersome "he or she" "himself or herself" language when talking about hypotheticals or when the sex/gender is not known, but the option to choose "they" is, again, perfectly acceptable and not a grammatical error should they choose it.

    Also, seeing that usage drives grammar and not the other way around (although grammar as we learned it does influence how we use language, but that's a whole nother topic, which I can talk all day about if anyone is interested lol), when more and more people, particularly in writing that is accessible to anyone who might be doing research or is curious about how often "they" is used in reference to an individual, the more "they" becomes part of our official and unofficial lexicons.

    Whatever your opinion about any issues related to other people's sex or gender or identity or transitioning or how they look or act or what they say about themselves (and I am not offering any opinion here on any of those issues except the use of "they"), you can breathe a sigh of relief that there is at least this one issue that you can set aside and have no rational need to fight about (unless you're elucidating the neutral facts of language usage).

    From one of the most used and respected style guides: https://apastyle.apa.org/style-gramm.../singular-they

    That said, I admit that I often use the default "she" when I don't know the correct pronouns, but this is simply because I like when people say, "Oh, it's he," such as with a cat pic on the internet, and then I say, "Oh, sorry. Okay. I just use the default female when I don't know."

    It's not done to exclude, but just because it's fucking refreshing in a world dominated by some stupid idea that "he" is a default anything, especially given that we all start out proto-female and only switch to what we call male reproductive parts some time after conception. And sometimes doing this actually makes someone think differently about it or maybe just lures out of the woodwork all the reflexively defensive of stupid things they've never actually thought about much less rationally deliberated with their frontal lobes in charge.

    Edit: I just learned that the singular "they" is actually centuries older than the plural. Somewhere in the middle somebody decided "We're gonna do it this way," and for a couple hundred more years, everyone said, "Yes, yes, good. We will smack down anyone who tries something different."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
    Last edited by Angry Floof; 06-13-2021 at 10:48 PM.

  3. Top | #3
    Tricksy Leftits Angry Floof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lancre
    Posts
    12,942
    Archived
    14,435
    Total Posts
    27,377
    Rep Power
    74
    As for men wearing dresses, if a lot of men start wearing dresses, then dresses become "men's fashion." Acceptance of new fashion trends depends a lot on the status of the wearers of the new look.

    But just in case anyone didn't get the memo, all clothes are men's fashion and all clothes are also women's fashion, regardless of how deeply ingrained the traditional binary ideas about clothes are in our minds.

    Men's fashions, as all fashion, has changed and morphed and men of high social status especially have worn stuff we today would consider ridiculous for a man to be seen in, like those long pointy shoes that they are all trying to out-long and out-pointy each other to the point where they had to tie the ends of their shoes on a string tied to their waists just to be able to walk.

    Our mailman wears shorts and a ponytail. I'm sure there are quite a few users here old enough to remember when such a sight would be unheard of, and just the long hair alone would have had the conservatives of our youth raging in animal brain fear aggression.

    Anyway, yeah, change is pretty much the answer to everything everywhere, with fashion trends as well as social norms and attitudes. Hopefully also in how we regard our fellow human beings in this highly connected, noisy, clashing world.

    Edit:


  4. Top | #4
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Georgia, US
    Posts
    5,396
    Archived
    3,862
    Total Posts
    9,258
    Rep Power
    84
    Sorry to disagree with the they thing. I think that those who are non binary should come up with a new pronoun, not she or he. They just doesn't work and I think it might cause more problems for these folks. I have no dislike of anyone, even if I question their claims but I think it's a bit nuts to use a pronoun that is plural to describe someone who is a single individual. I have read that in some countries, new words have been used for non binary folks. When you tell me that you are a they, it's like saying you have multiple personalities. It's not helpful for promoting one's position.

    Yeah. I get it. Men have always worn skirts or kilts to some degree. I'm talking about clothing that looks very feminine and I admit I'm biased because I hate dresses and skirts. Still, wear whatever makes you happy. That doesn't bother me. I'm just trying to understand the attraction to such clothing like the ones in the linked article. As I said, people in my town wear all kinds of clothing that adds to my amusement. I never criticize what anyone wears, but sometimes it does make me wonder what the appeal was when someone is wearing bedroom slippers, leopard print yoga pants and a striped shirt, for example. I'm also wondering what the appeal is of wearing a dress on a very masculine figure. Not knocking it. Just wondering why one finds it so appealing.

    I hope if anyone else joins this discussion that it can be done without getting hateful. It's okay to disagree with each other, but for some reason, people seem to attack each other a lot these days just for having different views and opinions. I appreciate your thoughtful comments.

    I will probably add some more later when I have time. But here's a question. Do you personally know anyone who describes themselves as non binary? If so, have you ever asked what made the person come to the conclusion that they were a mix of genders. Don't we all have traits that traditionally have been associated with either male or female? Does that mean that we are all non binary to a certain extent? Will gender fluidity be the thing in the future?

    I read a non binary article that claimed that Joan of Arc was non binary. No. We can't go back in time and put labels on people without substantial evidence.

  5. Top | #5
    the baby-eater
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Straya
    Posts
    4,372
    Archived
    1,750
    Total Posts
    6,122
    Rep Power
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    So, if you are a man, would you feel comfortable wearing a dress in public?
    No.

    1. It would look objectively hideous.
    2. It would clash with my "working class nerd" aesthetic. :P

  6. Top | #6
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    NOT laying back and thinking of England
    Posts
    12,089
    Archived
    3,655
    Total Posts
    15,744
    Rep Power
    56
    In some cultures, men wear dresses, although they are not called that. In western culture, it's really not been a thing for centuries. I have no personal objection but I admit that it does take some getting used to simply because it's unfamiliar.

    I really should make an effort to watch some of RuPaul's Drag Race. Drag has always made me somewhat uncomfortable because in my mind (which may be completely off target), those who dress in the exaggerated drag are purportedly expressing femininity in ways that I do not associate with anything feminine. I simply don't. I may very well be misunderstanding the point of drag.

    I've never been attracted to or aspired to lots of make up or elaborate hairstyle or constricting dresses, high heels, etc. I've always been a jeans and t-shirt kind of person but one who, in my old age, does understand the purpose and utility of dressing for the occasion, even if it involves skirts or dresses. Part of my shift in POV is that changing mores and fashion no longer make things like panty hose or heaven forbid, girdles and restrictive foundation garments de rigor. It' much easier now to dress simply, appropriately and even elegantly in a simply dress or skirt with jacket, and a pair of....low heels for us short people. It's also much, much, much more comfortable and less complicated and so, to me, more acceptable. It's not my every day dress but I can do it without objection or complaint where the occasion calls for it.

    Until recently, I vastly did NOT prefer to EVER wear a dress. In fact, I refused to go to first grade upon learning I was expected to wear a dress. My refusal did not stand and indeed, I wore dresses and skirts to school until TPTB decreed that girls could wear slacks but not jeans to school, which was universally ignored in favor of jeans, which were ubiquitous in the day amongst younger people. Nowadays, I honestly don't mind dressing up a bit for the occasional wedding or other event and often wear a dress on those fairly rare occasions. Otherwise, frankly, a casual t-shirt dress is less hot than pants and a top and sometimes, on very hot days, I prefer those t-shirt dresses simply because they are cooler than pants and a top.

    One advantage that women have had over men is that it has become acceptable over the past 100 years or so for women to wear traditionally male clothing while the reverse has not been true. And why not? Why has it been more acceptable for women to embrace 'male' characteristics/behaviors than for men to embrace the feminine? And why are certain things considered 'masculine' but do not require male genitalia or male hormones and why are certain things considered 'feminine' but do not require female reproductive organs/genitalia/hormones? I don't get it. Boys may (or may not) like climbing trees and looking at insects and rocks more commonly than do girls but such activities are not inherently masculine. Nor is enjoying art or cuddling animals or dolls inherently female. Given the opportunity, many boy children will happily play with dolls and stuffed animals, care for them, create imaginative play where the toy plays the part of a character in the child's fantasy. We're comfortable enough with boys doing that with GI Joes and Star Wars figures so why not with teddy bears and baby dolls?

    I've never been in favor of rigid gender roles. Many of my natural interests have long been considered to be masculine and frankly, confused and upset my mother. I'm pretty sure my father would have been upset to see my sons play with stuffed animals and to occasionally wear my shoes (much smaller and easier for little children to wear than their father's larger shoes) or jewelry. As it happened, we always lived far enough away that visits involved people and not toys and the boys were always delighted with any typical masculine toy Grandpa offered, generally along the lines of trucks and building sets. (Also encouraged by myself and my husband just as my daughter was likewise encouraged to play with building sets and trucks and sports things). I chose to marry someone who naturally is more interested in spending time with babies and young children and in cooking than the average man of previous generations and even our generation. Today's young fathers more closely resemble how my husband behaved/behaves, taking on meal planning, cooking, grocery shopping, child care, laundry etc. along with the mothers.

  7. Top | #7
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Georgia, US
    Posts
    5,396
    Archived
    3,862
    Total Posts
    9,258
    Rep Power
    84
    I agree with most of what you posted, Toni. When you mentioned children playing with different gender related toys, it reminded me of something I did while raising my son. I didn't want him to feel restricted to toys related to boys, so I bought him a doll when he was about two. He took off the doll's clothing and tossed it around the house as if it was a ball. The reason I did that was partly due to the culture of the 70s and partly because my father never wanted me to play with cars, trains etc. so I wanted to give my son the chance to explore things that weren't usually associated with little boys.

    As a child, I did also enjoy playing with all of the typical things that are associated with little girls, dolls, cookware, toy tables, chairs, etc. Were we being programmed to become stereotypical adult females? I don't know, but since my husband took up cooking as a hobby, I've been relieved of the cooking task for years.

    I chose a female dominated career, but as I said earlier, I was told that being assertive was something associated with men. I thought that was bullshit. I was never afraid to question male doctors, to advocate for my patients and even sometimes fight to get them what I thought they needed. Sometimes that made doctors angry at me. I once hung up on a doctor who was being a real asshole on the phone, right in front of one of my patients. Later that week, I got a standing ovation from some nurses at the local hospital when I went to drop off some charts. That's how rare it was back then for female nurses to be assertive, I guess. I think that's changed by now.

    I guess men wearing fancy dresses has made me think of all kinds of gender stereotypes, while still exploring what it means to by non binary. I've tried to find evidence that it's something other than a cultural thing without any success. Gender is certainly changing. Maybe the day will come when nobody is associated with either gender. I doubt I'll be alive by then.

    One thing I found humorous in the linked article is that some of the men said they wanted to be free of having to wear a zipper and having their legs covered. OMG! I was forced to wear dresses or skirts all through high school. It wasn't until around 1969 that the girls were permitted to wear slacks to school. To me, it was freedom no longer having to wear a dress, so I thought it was funny that some men associated dresses with freedom.

    I understand drag queens. That's more of an entertainment thing. The men in the article aren't drag queens. They are just men who like to wear dresses, even if they have beards and very masculine shapes. As AF mentioned, things do change. And, sometimes it's hard to understand why things are changing. Most powerful women wear pants suits, while some men feel free when they wear dresses.

    If I must dress up, it's black slacks, a slightly dressy top and some beautiful jewelry. Jewelry is my weakness, partly for sentimental reasons and partly because I love bright sparkly things.

  8. Top | #8
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    2,724
    Archived
    7,585
    Total Posts
    10,309
    Rep Power
    73
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    One advantage that women have had over men is that it has become acceptable over the past 100 years or so for women to wear traditionally male clothing while the reverse has not been true. And why not? Why has it been more acceptable for women to embrace 'male' characteristics/behaviors than for men to embrace the feminine? And why are certain things considered 'masculine' but do not require male genitalia or male hormones and why are certain things considered 'feminine' but do not require female reproductive organs/genitalia/hormones? I don't get it. Boys may (or may not) like climbing trees and looking at insects and rocks more commonly than do girls but such activities are not inherently masculine. Nor is enjoying art or cuddling animals or dolls inherently female. Given the opportunity, many boy children will happily play with dolls and stuffed animals, care for them, create imaginative play where the toy plays the part of a character in the child's fantasy. We're comfortable enough with boys doing that with GI Joes and Star Wars figures so why not with teddy bears and baby dolls?
    Because in our patriarchal societies masculine qualities are considered good and feminine ones bad. Why would a man want to adopt bad qualities? It is more respected that a woman might want to become better or stronger, but why would a man want to become worse or weaker? Women do still get criticized for adopting masculine characteristics, but certainly not as much as men get vilified for adopting feminine characteristics.

    You see this in entertainment media, right? Women superheroes or adventurers are basically women doing what men do. Strength is kicking butt and being strong. How many female superheroes do you see using feminine qualities to save the day? It's very rare. The closest I've seen lately is in the movie Wonder Woman, where it was her compassion that led her to saving that village when all the men wanted to pass by without helping. But she still saved the village by being strong and defeated the villain in the end with punching and power.

  9. Top | #9
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    32,343
    Archived
    96,752
    Total Posts
    129,095
    Rep Power
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Otherwise, frankly, a casual t-shirt dress is less hot than pants and a top and sometimes, on very hot days, I prefer those t-shirt dresses simply because they are cooler than pants and a top.
    There have been times I've wished a dress was socially acceptable for men for this reason. While I haven't actually tried it I would think a short dress would be the ideal hot-weather garment. Clothes are a substantial impediment to the body's cooling system.

  10. Top | #10
    Tricksy Leftits Angry Floof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lancre
    Posts
    12,942
    Archived
    14,435
    Total Posts
    27,377
    Rep Power
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by southernhybrid View Post
    Sorry to disagree with the they thing.
    Why be sorry? Your opinions don't affect my feelings. If you disagree, you disagree.

    I think that those who are non binary should come up with a new pronoun, not she or he.
    I'm not being hateful when I say this, but why are you telling non-binary people what they should do on this issue?

    They just doesn't work
    For whom? (You mean you, I get it.)

    and I think it might cause more problems for these folks.
    Again not being hateful but truly astounded at this. What in the world makes you think you know more about their problems than they do?

    I have no dislike of anyone, even if I question their claims but I think it's a bit nuts
    Yes, yes, always a respectful line of reasoning to use on people you swear you don't disrespect.

    And that is not hateful, but it is sarcastic, which is not at all the same thing.

    to use a pronoun that is plural to describe someone who is a single individual.
    And you would be wrong about the usage of "they," both contemporary and in history.

    I have read that in some countries, new words have been used for non binary folks. When you tell me that you are a they, it's like saying you have multiple personalities.
    No, it isn't. What a ghastly thing to say. How often do you "think" people have multiple personalities when they're referred to as "they" when gender/sex is not known or in a hypothetical? Do you also suspect multiple personalities are involved then? But you'll pull that horrible accusation out with a straight face when you do know you're talking about an actual person??

    It's not helpful for promoting one's position.
    Not helpful to whom? (And you can say "their" position here. Don't worry, it's just a hypothetical person, not an objectionably real person whose personal information is not actually your business if they don't tell you. And you're not entitled to pull insulting and sophomoric "arguments" out at them even if they do!)

    Yeah. I get it. Men have always worn skirts or kilts to some degree. I'm talking about clothing that looks very feminine and I admit I'm biased because I hate dresses and skirts. Still, wear whatever makes you happy. That doesn't bother me. I'm just trying to understand the attraction to such clothing like the ones in the linked article. As I said, people in my town wear all kinds of clothing that adds to my amusement.
    I also am curious about such things.

    I never criticize what anyone wears,
    Just what they think they know about themselves, what they call themselves, what their potential problems are...

    but sometimes it does make me wonder what the appeal was when someone is wearing bedroom slippers, leopard print yoga pants and a striped shirt, for example.
    What would be the significance of those particular items? Are they unusual and/or indicative of some certain thing? I mean, I wear mis-matched loungewear and slippers all the time. What does that make you wonder about me? (I'm guessing it's probably something you already know. )

    I'm also wondering what the appeal is of wearing a dress on a very masculine figure. Not knocking it. Just wondering why one finds it so appealing.
    What an amazing coincidence that your curiosities match up so closely to your prejudices.

    *snip the part that obviously doesn't apply to me or else it would have been addressed to Angry Floof and not anyone else.*

    I will probably add some more later when I have time. But here's a question. Do you personally know anyone who describes themselves as non binary?
    Yes!

    If so, have you ever asked what made the person come to the conclusion that they were a mix of genders.
    No! That's not my business and they haven't offered the information.

    Don't we all have traits that traditionally have been associated with either male or female?
    Depends on what you mean by "traditionally." I take it you probably mean Western society for the last maybe century. If not, then the answer is no.

    Does that mean that we are all non binary to a certain extent?
    No, but I'm just here to expound on the wonders of language usage and stuff, and not to the degree of non-binariness that "we all" might be. AND it's also not my business.

    But I do know that there is a shit ton of information and theory and opinion and perspective on this topic available at your fingertips if you're really curious.

    And I also have questions. 1) Are you really curious? 2) If not, is that last question an attempt at muddying rhetoric?

    "And Ah ask you, laidehs and gennlemun of the jureh, if we ah awl non-bahnerreh, then hooWAH should we let anyone cawl themsailves non-bahnereh?" *gallery erupts* *because they think it's brilliant rhetoric* *it's not*

    No need to answer those two questions. They actually are rhetorical.

    Will gender fluidity be the thing in the future?
    Not sure I fully understand the question, but I know that what we might use the term "gender fluid" for today has also been a thing in the past (human reproductive development didn't just start defying the status quo this decade, but as to the future, I don't know any more than you do, and I've never heard of any non-binary people having a particular gift for divination.

    I read a non binary article
    Nitpick here. People can be non-binary, not articles. But I knew what you meant. It just sounded funny, "a non binary article." hehe

    claimed that Joan of Arc was non binary. No. We can't go back in time and put labels on people without substantial evidence.
    We can and we do, obviously, though YMMV depending on the historian. If you mean you think we shouldn't, well that's fine. Make your case. Or not. It's all good. It's not a debate I'm interested in myself.

    I hope it's ok that I addressed your actual comments and questions and didn't try to read into them any kind of subtext about anyone not wanting to be challenged through thoughtful commentary, because I'm sure that's not how it was intended. And I agree about thoughtful commentary, and in which sarcasm is not thoughtless nor is it hateful. I'm sorry if you disagree with that because given the sheer disrespect, and hatefulness, and not at all thoughtful commentary and questions about people you've never met that you have put forth, not to mention baldly dubious claims about your own intentions, I can honestly say I'm being very, very careful with your feelings! Those "arguments" and "questions" are only "arguments" and "questions" to people who never expect to ever care about a human being who might fall under the descriptions discussed here.

    But there is no way in hell you will ever be so thoughtful or honest or not-hateful in your claims to want to know more or learn or understand others. If you can't be bothered to care about your fellow human beings' feelings (at the very least!), then why should anyone care about yours?

    I think I understand now why you started your post with "Sorry."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •