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Thread: What is the Jewish enslavement in Egypt about?

  1. Top | #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    What are you basing the idea that they showed up suddenly on? This is the first time I hear that said
    I don't know what you want. Cunliffe writes "In the brief period from 1250 to 1150 the entire edifice of centralized, bureaucratic, palace-based exchange [including Hittites. Egyptians, and Mycenaeans] fell apart."

    Other texts offer similar comments, and use the word "sudden." Manco: "... centers destroyed and abandoned ... sharp drop in population. Writing ceased."
    I don't think any reputable modern historian has made the claim it was sudden. As the theory goes, a bunch of displaced, starving people showed up on their doorstep and were either allowed to settle or would fight. Their sheer number overwhelmed Egypts ability to manage them.

    Its similar to the Goths and how it led to the fall of the Western Roman empire. Its the exact same story. Stopping the Goths from entering Roman territory was not an option. But since all the Goths wanted was food and shelter, the Roman government made a deal with them allowing them to stay. Over time Goths didn't see why they should be second class citizens in Rome and started demanding rights. This led to ethnic conflicts which eventually led to the Western half of the empire falling apart.

    Its a similar story. Its just more detailed since we have more records.
    (Your take on the Visigothic conquests of Italy seems novel. But let's stick to the Late Bronze Age Collapse.)

    Your claim that the Bronze Age Collapse wasn't sudden is baffling. (That's why I've asked you, 3 or 4 times, what you're even talking about. You're now focused on the Sea People but I almost wonder if you've combined them with the centuries-earlier Hyksos into some grand reductionist vision of history! ) In fact, the collapse of the Hittite Empire (and other powerful states in the region) was so sudden that its cause is regarded as a great mystery! (Climate change, or drought specifically, is the usual assumption.) Google "sudden 1177 BC" and see what you learn.

    I quoted from Barry Cunliffe and you respond with something about "any reputable modern historian." Sir Barry's credentials don't seem so awful:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    • Professor of European Archaeology at the University of Oxford (1972-2007)
    • Emeritus Professor at the University of Oxford (2007-present)
    • President, Council for British Archaeology (1976–1979)
    • Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) in the 1994 Birthday Honours for services to archaeology
    • Original Chair of Steering Committee for the e-journal Internet Archaeology
    • Grahame Clark Medal of the British Academy (2004)
    Last edited by Swammerdami; 08-07-2021 at 03:55 PM.

  2. Top | #32
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    I don't think any reputable modern historian has made the claim it was sudden. As the theory goes, a bunch of displaced, starving people showed up on their doorstep and were either allowed to settle or would fight. Their sheer number overwhelmed Egypts ability to manage them.

    Its similar to the Goths and how it led to the fall of the Western Roman empire. Its the exact same story. Stopping the Goths from entering Roman territory was not an option. But since all the Goths wanted was food and shelter, the Roman government made a deal with them allowing them to stay. Over time Goths didn't see why they should be second class citizens in Rome and started demanding rights. This led to ethnic conflicts which eventually led to the Western half of the empire falling apart.

    Its a similar story. Its just more detailed since we have more records.
    (Your take on the Visigothic conquests of Italy seems novel. But let's stick to the Late Bronze Age Collapse.)

    Your claim that the Bronze Age Collapse wasn't sudden is baffling. (That's why I've asked you, 3 or 4 times, what you're even talking about. You're now focused on the Sea People but I almost wonder if you've combined them with the centuries-earlier Hyksos into some grand reductionist vision of history! ) In fact, the collapse of the Hittite Empire (and other powerful states in the region) was so sudden that its cause is regarded as a great mystery! (Climate change, or drought specifically, is the usual assumption.) Google "sudden 1177 BC" and see what you learn.

    I quoted from Barry Cunliffe and you respond with something about "any reputable modern historian." Sir Barry's credentials don't seem so awful:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    • Professor of European Archaeology at the University of Oxford (1972-2007)
    • Emeritus Professor at the University of Oxford (2007-present)
    • President, Council for British Archaeology (1976–1979)
    • Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) in the 1994 Birthday Honours for services to archaeology
    • Original Chair of Steering Committee for the e-journal Internet Archaeology
    • Grahame Clark Medal of the British Academy (2004)
    Yes, the government can collapse suddenly even though the cause isn't sudden. Its simply a question of resource management. Food is in short supply. Initially there are buffers. But those get eaten up. The government struggles to keep it all going. At some point the government can't pay their troops. At some point the troops start doubting they will ever get paid. They turn on the king and start fighting amongst themselves. That's when there's a sudden dramatic collapse along the entire chain of command.

    I think it's just as simple as you not reading what the historians are saying carefully enough.

    But nobody in modern times has made the argument that the hyksos or sea people's was a large scale sudden invasion. It was just a refuge crisis that was so massive the Egyptian government couldn't deal with it. Wave upon wave of armed refugees who had nothing left to lose.

    No government in the Mediterranean could deal with it. They all collapsed. The only societies that survived intact were isolated communities of goat herders. Because they could take everything they owned and fuck off, out of the path of the refugees.

    Another popular theory is that the period before the bronze age collapse was very stable and peaceful which created societies that assumed times would always be good. So they had low resilience. When the wave of refugees showed up all of a sudden the societies didnt have the buffers to deal with it.

    These refugees wouldn't only have been step nomads. They would mostly be their neighbours. The, collapses caused a domino effect, pushing ever outwards. Which is why the Hyksod rulers in Egypt worshipped Canaanite gods

  3. Top | #33
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    We're talking past each other. But I can't let all this disinformation stand!

    First: You insist on some reductionist vision: The Hyksos, Sea People, and Visigoths all get conflated together in your perspective. Try working one topic at a time!

    AFAIK, nobody thinks the Hyksos or the Sea People came from the steppes, let alone from "the steps." Anatolia is a big place with lots of tribes; I think the Sea People (who were NOT a homogeneous group) came from Anatolia or other parts of the Eastern Mediterranean. Connecting back to ancient Jewish history, it is likely that the Philistines began as "Sea People." In one theory. Ramesses III arranged for the Philistines attacking Egypt to settle in northern Canaan.


    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Yes, the government can collapse suddenly even though the cause isn't sudden.
    I pointed out already that drought is the most popular explanation of the Bronze Age collapse. If drought isn't "sudden" enough for you, I give up.

    I think it's just as simple as you not reading what the historians are saying carefully enough.
    I've linked to scholarly books. So far, you've provided zero evidence for your claims.

    But nobody in modern times has made the argument that the hyksos or sea people's was a large scale sudden invasion. It was just a refuge crisis that was so massive the Egyptian government couldn't deal with it. Wave upon wave of armed refugees who had nothing left to lose.
    There you go again, conflating Hyksos and Sea People, separated in time by several centuries. Your description of the Sea People invasion is partly correct. As you imply, it was "sudden", though that word turns you off for some reason.

    No government in the Mediterranean could deal with it. They all collapsed.
    You assume that the invasions CAUSED the Hittite Empire collapse. Actual historians tend to think it was the collapse which CAUSED the invasions!

  4. Top | #34
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post
    We're talking past each other. But I can't let all this disinformation stand!
    Or you could just pay attention to what I'm saying

    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post
    First: You insist on some reductionist vision: The Hyksos, Sea People, and Visigoths all get conflated together in your perspective. Try working one topic at a time!
    I don't think anybody but you think I am conflating them

    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post
    AFAIK, nobody thinks the Hyksos or the Sea People came from the steppes, let alone from "the steps." Anatolia is a big place with lots of tribes; I think the Sea People (who were NOT a homogeneous group) came from Anatolia or other parts of the Eastern Mediterranean. Connecting back to ancient Jewish history, it is likely that the Philistines began as "Sea People." In one theory. Ramesses III arranged for the Philistines attacking Egypt to settle in northern Canaan.
    Also, nothing that I wrote. I repeatedly tried to explain this. You still haven't grasped what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post
    I pointed out already that drought is the most popular explanation of the Bronze Age collapse. If drought isn't "sudden" enough for you, I give up.
    We don't really know why there was a South Western migration. We only know that it happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post

    I've linked to scholarly books. So far, you've provided zero evidence for your claims.
    .
    You don't seem to understand that books you linked to. I don't think scholarly books are helping you here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post
    But nobody in modern times has made the argument that the hyksos or sea people's was a large scale sudden invasion. It was just a refuge crisis that was so massive the Egyptian government couldn't deal with it. Wave upon wave of armed refugees who had nothing left to lose.
    There you go again, conflating Hyksos and Sea People, separated in time by several centuries. Your description of the Sea People invasion is partly correct. As you imply, it was "sudden", though that word turns you off for some reason.
    Sea peoples is an ancient Egyptian term for a group that attacked Egypt. But we have no idea what group they refer to. Its unlikely that a new invasion force pops up out of nowhere and fail to make an impact in the DNA. The sea people's must have been local to the Mediterranean. Secondly. The Hyksos was a ruling people who established a dynasty and who worshipped Canaanite gods. We have no idea how this group was constituted or from where they came. But it wasn't a Canaanite kingdom ruling Canaan. This was people who had left Canaan or some other place.

    You seem to have a problem with calling them refugees? Is that your hang up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post

    No government in the Mediterranean could deal with it. They all collapsed.
    You assume that the invasions CAUSED the Hittite Empire collapse. Actual historians tend to think it was the collapse which CAUSED the invasions!
    Nope. Nobody knows what caused what. All we have is correlation. You are adding speculation. I see no point in speculating about things nobody knows anything about

  5. Top | #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    According to archeology the Jews were never enslaved in Egypt. Plenty of Jews lived in Egypt right back to the first mentions of Jews ca 600 BC. But they were mostly mercenaries, traders or even settlers. Apart from the odd war here and there, they were always welcome in Egypt and never suffered mass enslavement.

    So wtf is this section of the Bible about? Why is it there? Jews were actually enslaved en masse to Babylon. That's historically accurate and is in the Bible. But what's the fictional Egyptian captivity about?

    Does anybody have a good explanation for that?
    From Thutmoses III on, Egypt held hegemony over Palestine. Possibly, dim memories of this era may have
    been at the root of the tall tales of Exodus. Amenhotep II did go on a military tear and sent lots of Canaanites back to Egypt as slaves. But no Israelites, which did not exist in Canaan at that time.
    Cheerful Charlie

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    According to archeology the Jews were never enslaved in Egypt. Plenty of Jews lived in Egypt right back to the first mentions of Jews ca 600 BC. But they were mostly mercenaries, traders or even settlers. Apart from the odd war here and there, they were always welcome in Egypt and never suffered mass enslavement.

    So wtf is this section of the Bible about? Why is it there? Jews were actually enslaved en masse to Babylon. That's historically accurate and is in the Bible. But what's the fictional Egyptian captivity about?

    Does anybody have a good explanation for that?
    Depending on how one sees it (and being a tad pendantic). There were NO Jews during the time before the exodus, assuming you mean around that time - obviously because Judah didn't exist then.

    Interestingly regarding Israelites, there is a possible explanation as to "what the section of the bible is about" using an excerpt from the British Library, their viewpoint of that section narrative:

    Thousands of years ago, according to the Old Testament, the Jews were slaves in Egypt. The Israelites had been in Egypt for generations, but now that they had become so numerous, the Pharaoh feared their presence. He feared that one day the Isrealites would turn against the Egyptians. Gradually and stealthily, he forced them to become his slaves.


    https://www.bl.uk/learning/cult/insi...slavement.html
    I don't understand what that explains? That's an attempt to explain how an event that didn't happen took place. What does that explain? Exodus is a complete fantasy. That's well established. My question is, why is it in the Bible? It seems redundant, since the Jews really were enslaved in Babylon.

    I disagree that Jews didn't exist back then. The group of people that later became Jews must have been a coherent group spanning back many thousands of years prior to anyone mentioning the word Jehova.

    There's no reason to believe any group of slaves fled Egypt en masse at any point in history. So it's a moot point that they were called something else back then.

    Edit: fun fact is that the idea that slaves were used to build the Egyptian pyramids came from the Jewish historian Josephus. That was also a fabrication. Helping to build the pyramids was an honour and only free men would be given that honour
    The point of all of this was,Moses was appointed by God to lead the Isralites to Canaan. God gave these lands to Israel. Moses stopped along the way to receive the 613 laws from God. Explaining where they came from and why Jews must follow them. God will not kill Israel's enemies, the Israelites must do that them selves. No other God than Yahweh may be worshipped. How the sacrifices were to be done, and what parts of the sacrifices did the priests get to eat.

    It was about establishing theological claims.
    Cheerful Charlie

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