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Thread: Creation "science" and a Bible-based morality

  1. Top | #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    If you become suicidal from being an atheist I suggest you stay a Christian.
    When I was looking into anti-YEC resources I did say to whatever was out there "I don't care how depressing it is, I want to know the truth" and then for the only time in my life I felt a strong tingling over my body.... I guess I chose the red pill over the blue pill.....
    What is depressing about the truth? Being alive can be like winning the lottery! Yet, some people what to complain that 60 to 100 years of existence isn't enough. We are literally the universe becoming aware of itself. The whole concept is awesome!

    So instead of trying to want more, engage with what is... what you like to do... and do it! There are no warranties.

    Unless, that means fascinating over Ken Ham and his manipulation, bullshit, and lies. In that case, find a new hobby.
    Last time I served on a jury I had to take that oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Did a fifth grade class come up with that oath?

    It seems we would be better served if I were placed under oath and swore to be honest, to be rational and to be accurate in my testimony. But that would probably fly over most people's heads so we dumb it down to early middle school so everyone can kind of comprehend and understand, and so the judge doesn't constantly have to re-explain what the oath means.

  2. Top | #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    What is depressing about the truth? Being alive can be like winning the lottery! Yet, some people what to complain that 60 to 100 years of existence isn't enough. We are literally the universe becoming aware of itself. The whole concept is awesome!

    So instead of trying to want more, engage with what is... what you like to do... and do it! There are no warranties.

    Unless, that means fascinating over Ken Ham and his manipulation, bullshit, and lies. In that case, find a new hobby.
    Last time I served on a jury I had to take that oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Did a fifth grade class come up with that oath?

    It seems we would be better served if I were placed under oath and swore to be honest, to be rational and to be accurate in my testimony. But that would probably fly over most people's heads so we dumb it down to early middle school so everyone can kind of comprehend and understand, and so the judge doesn't constantly have to re-explain what the oath means.
    Of course, the oath is actually a lie. Witnesses are explicitly forbidden from providing the "whole truth". They are only allowed to answer questions they are asked, and within a very specific level of adjacency.

    Defense Lawyer: And was the defendant, to your knowledge, at that apartment?
    Witness: Not to my knowledge, but I totally think he did it. I mean, his behavior since the night she died has been really suspect. My girlfriend was like 'What is going on with him?' and I was like 'I don't know, he just seems really anxious since the night that woman lady got killed.'
    Defense Lawyer: Your honor...
    Judge: You have been warned several times to stop elaborating.
    Witness: But I took an oath to tell the "whole truth".
    Judge: That's it, bailiff, please escort the witness to jail.

  3. Top | #83
    Veteran Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    If you become suicidal from being an atheist I suggest you stay a Christian.
    When I was looking into anti-YEC resources I did say to whatever was out there "I don't care how depressing it is, I want to know the truth" and then for the only time in my life I felt a strong tingling over my body.... I guess I chose the red pill over the blue pill.....
    What is depressing about the truth?
    When I was a YEC I had an invisible friend and felt good about my belief I'd go to heaven. As I suspected when I gave up my belief in YEC I went straight to atheism and became depressed... see post #62. The Matrix (and its pills) is another example where the truth is depressing.
    But now I'm no longer an atheist and I'm looking forward to plans I've got for my life (like making a computer game based on the Bible)

  4. Top | #84
    Veteran Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    If you become suicidal from being an atheist I suggest you stay a Christian.
    When I was looking into anti-YEC resources I did say to whatever was out there "I don't care how depressing it is, I want to know the truth" and then for the only time in my life I felt a strong tingling over my body.... I guess I chose the red pill over the blue pill.....
    A common line said about religion is that all religion is fundamentally about man's relationship with the unknown. And that's just the basic fact of the matter. Nobody knows the truth.
    I was talking about the truth regarding YEC vs atheistic evolution. Perhaps rejecting YEC led me closer to the truth. It could be a false dichotomy though - there could be other possibilities besides YEC and atheistic evolution.
    Or to put it more succinctly, it doesn't matter whether you swallow the red or the blue pill. Either way you'll learn the same things.
    If you take the blue pill you lose all knowledge of the world outside of the Matrix...

  5. Top | #85
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    there could be other possibilities besides YEC and atheistic evolution.
    Well, yeah. There's...evolution.

    Dude, it's not atheistic evolution. Science is neutral on the question of whether or not gods exist. It must be. It's purview is the natural world, not the supernatural. It's like saying there's married and unmarried bachelors...if he's married, he's not a bachelor.

    Evolutionary theory asks what happened, and how. And how do we know.
    It cannot say that something happened 'because god(s) so willed it.' Or definitively say 'gods had nothing to do with it.'
    It's just that, like the water cycle, orbits, tides, 4-color map theory, or alternating current, we know enough about it we think the explanation hangs together without demanding an appeal to magic at step 47.

  6. Top | #86
    Veteran Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    there could be other possibilities besides YEC and atheistic evolution.
    Well, yeah. There's...evolution.

    Dude, it's not atheistic evolution. Science is neutral on the question of whether or not gods exist.
    At that time, for me, the options were YEC and atheistic evolution. According to many famous YECs if Genesis wasn't literal then I couldn't trust the gospel either.
    It's like in this comic where a OEC and YEC debate each other then the YEC eventually goes straight to atheism...
    https://www.oldearth.org/tract/tract.htm
    Just about the only evidence I had for God was YEC. So if YEC isn't true then neither is God. If evolution is true then perhaps deism is true but I wanted a God that could send me to heaven and work in my life. A non-intervening God was depressing and effectively doesn't exist.
    Recently I did attempt to argue that evolution required God in the following threads but I failed so I don't think there is good evidence for theistic evolution over atheistic evolution.

    Birds, Bees, Butterflies and Flowers

    Chameleons and guided evolution?

    Selection pressures for long hair and beards in humans?

  7. Top | #87
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Except there's still no such thing as atheistic evolution.

    There is theistic evolution. Just take any textbook and stamp a 'because God*' footnote on every page, and an endnote '*By 'God' we mean ______' and fill in your preferred deity.

    But no theory or detail of evolutionary science is held to work ONLY as long as there are NO gods. No part of evolutionary theory implies a lack of gods. Plenty of scientists who accept evolutionary theory accept one or more divine beings. They just don't incorporate those beings in their papers.
    Just like people working in other sciences, who manage to believe in the science without harming their fidelity to the skyguy.

    Continuing to see it as a split between creation and 'atheistic evolution' is the manipulation the church uses to keep people in line.

    As to God being necessary for evolution, you're looking to natural processes for evidence of supernatural components. That's going to work about as well as taping a cardboard spoiler onto the back of a fighter jet.

  8. Top | #88
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    Why do children stop believing in Santa? It certainly isn't that their brains suddenly lost the ability and the pleasure associated with pretending. It isn't that they had to start giving up receiving presents. Nothing external in their worlds changed at all. The changes were internal. All that changed was that something they considered "true" was no longer true. My one son only became convinced that Santa was just a story after checking it out in an encyclopedia and on the internet. He didn't believe his friends or his parents.

    The adult god stories are exactly the same except that lots of friends and family continue to tell each other that the adult Santa god is still real, despite what lots of people say. Continuing to hold that the magic is real is no longer something odd and childish in a select group. Sometimes a group member's actual survival will depend upon clinging to the belief, unlike childhood santa god stories. There's also lots of money to be made. Children don't pass around money to those who tell them about their santa god. But adults certainly do and many become fabulously rich fulfilling the demand for adult santa stories.

    In the end it is just as impossible to demonstrate that the childhood Santa god is not real as it is impossible to demonstrate that the adult Santa god is not real. It's an interesting dynamic and observation of how the human brain operates in a given environment.

  9. Top | #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    A common line said about religion is that all religion is fundamentally about man's relationship with the unknown. And that's just the basic fact of the matter. Nobody knows the truth.
    I was talking about the truth regarding YEC vs atheistic evolution. Perhaps rejecting YEC led me closer to the truth. It could be a false dichotomy though - there could be other possibilities besides YEC and atheistic evolution.
    There is no atheistic evolution; what we have is the biological theory of evolution that attempts to model and explain the diversity of life we observe on this planet today. The theory is based on observations and experiments of the reality we observe, and uses a naturalistic approach as do all scientific endeavors. The scientific theory of evolution is supported by mountains of evidence, and it appears very unlikely that the fundamental models that describe how living things evolve will change dramatically in the future. Similarly, we don't have an atheistic model of gravity, we have Newton's model of gravity, which does a good job of describing reality within the parameters of most things we experience in our day-to-day lives, and we have the relativistic model of gravity developed by Einstein which extends the model to more massive and/or fast moving objects approaching the speed of light. The evidence supporting these models is vastly more compelling than the mythology that YEC is based on. If you choose to believe in the YEC model you are doing yourself a disservice by essentially lying to yourself.

    It is hypothetically possible that the reality we experience is itself a simulation. But it would be both impractical and foolish to live our lives based on this assumption. Again, you would be doing yourself a disservice by believing an idea based on no evidence.

  10. Top | #90
    Veteran Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    ....The evidence supporting these models is vastly more compelling than the mythology that YEC is based on. If you choose to believe in the YEC model you are doing yourself a disservice by essentially lying to yourself.
    So perhaps I was right when I said "Perhaps rejecting YEC led me closer to the truth".
    It is hypothetically possible that the reality we experience is itself a simulation. But it would be both impractical and foolish to live our lives based on this assumption. Again, you would be doing yourself a disservice by believing an idea based on no evidence.
    In post #45 I said "Basically I believe I'm probably in a simulation and there is an intelligent force that isn't obvious and I'm unable to convince skeptics of its existence". Elon Musk said that he thinks the chances he's not in a simuation is one in billions. I think there isn't strong evidence for the simulation so that it is more immersive.

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