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Thread: Creation "science" and a Bible-based morality

  1. Top | #91
    Veteran Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    .....But no theory or detail of evolutionary science is held to work ONLY as long as there are NO gods. No part of evolutionary theory implies a lack of gods....
    If there's no evidence that God ever intervened in evolution at all then it suggests there isn't a God that intervenes in our world... I mean if there's no evidence that God intervened during the emergence of man, like the Bible implies, then it suggests that the virgin birth and resurrection aren't literal...
    I'm talking about the God of the Bible. Like I said I believed that pretty much the only proof I had of God's existence was YEC. I wanted strong proof - not just the possibility that a hidden God is out there. At that time a hidden God was depressing because it couldn't give my life hope.

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    Veteran Member excreationist's Avatar
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    This might not be justified but I consider evolution without an intervening intelligent force to be "atheistic evolution" even if a non-intervening intelligent force exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Except there's still no such thing as atheistic evolution.


    There is theistic evolution. Just take any textbook and stamp a 'because God*' footnote on every page, and an endnote '*By 'God' we mean ______' and fill in your preferred deity.
    In the textbooks it doesn't mention any detectable intervention of an intelligent force which suggests a god didn't actually do anything. It seems what you're suggesting is like saying God causes warm ice to melt or apples to fall....

  3. Top | #93
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    .....But no theory or detail of evolutionary science is held to work ONLY as long as there are NO gods. No part of evolutionary theory implies a lack of gods....
    If there's no evidence that God ever intervened in evolution at all then it suggests there isn't a God that intervenes in our world...
    OR, he wore gloves. You'd think an all powerful being of infinite knowledge, including the future techniques used to examine the past might be able to not leave fingerprints if he so desired, nu?
    I mean if there's no evidence that God intervened during the emergence of man, like the Bible implies, then it suggests that the virgin birth and resurrection aren't literal...
    there is no evidence th at it's literal. This is not a problem for oodles of people who accept evolution and believe in the JCI god.
    I'm talking about the God of the Bible. Like I said I believed that pretty much the only proof I had of God's existence was YEC.
    that's pretty sad....
    I wanted strong proof - not just the possibility that a hidden God is out there. At that time a hidden God was depressing because it couldn't give my life hope.
    wanting it does not make it true. Or even likely. It doesn't even MAKE it possible,

  4. Top | #94
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    This might not be justified but I consider evolution without an intervening intelligent force to be "atheistic evolution" even if a non-intervening intelligent force exists.
    Atheism is about a belief in gods. None, to be exact.
    Evolution does not have any religious belief. There is no atheist evolutionary theory.
    Just like there's no atheist theory of the speed of light.
    Or atheist theory about blood type inheritance.
    There's observations, experiments, and math. That's it.
    Calling it atheist evolution is not justified.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    There is theistic evolution. Just take any textbook and stamp a 'because God*' footnote on every page, and an endnote '*By 'God' we mean ______' and fill in your preferred deity.
    In the textbooks it doesn't mention any detectable intervention of an intelligent force which suggests a god didn't actually do anything. It seems what you're suggesting is like saying God causes warm ice to melt or apples to fall....
    That's pretty much what theistic evolution does. Take the known science and attribute everything to god.

    Self-mutation did a lot of that. According to him, no one could do 4-figure math unless God propped up mathematics.

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    Atheism is not the same as nihilism or amorality. It disputes the existence of an intrinsic purpose and meaning in life, but it frees one to create one's own purpose in life. Three of my favorite Robert Ingersoll quotes on this general theme:

    "Let us be true to ourselves -- true to the facts we know...We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know. We can tell the truth, and we can enjoy the blessed freedom that the brave have won. We can destroy the monsters of superstition, the hissing snakes of ignorance and fear... We can civilize our fellow men. We can fill our lives with generous deeds, with loving words, with art and song, and all the ecstasies of love. We can flood our years with sunshine -- with the divine climate of kindness, and we can drain to the last drop the golden cup of joy."

    "The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray."

    "Happiness is the only good. The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy is here. The way to be happy is to make others so."

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    Veteran Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Atheism is about a belief in gods. None, to be exact.
    Evolution does not have any religious belief. There is no atheist evolutionary theory.
    In post #63 Jimmy Higgins said "All books are atheists. None of them believe in god(s)." So that joke follows that the theory of evolution could be atheist.
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist
    .....It seems what you're suggesting is like saying God causes warm ice to melt or apples to fall....
    That's pretty much what theistic evolution does. Take the known science and attribute everything to god.
    Then wasn't I being reasonable to immediately reject Christian theistic evolution?

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    Veteran Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist
    If there's no evidence that God ever intervened in evolution at all then it suggests there isn't a God that intervenes in our world...
    OR, he wore gloves. You'd think an all powerful being of infinite knowledge, including the future techniques used to examine the past might be able to not leave fingerprints if he so desired, nu?
    That's basically what I believe now.... see post #45....
    I mean if there's no evidence that God intervened during the emergence of man, like the Bible implies, then it suggests that the virgin birth and resurrection aren't literal...
    there is no evidence th at it's literal. This is not a problem for oodles of people who accept evolution and believe in the JCI god.
    That's also what I believe now - well a kind of god, not really the JCI one.
    I'm talking about the God of the Bible. Like I said I believed that pretty much the only proof I had of God's existence was YEC.
    that's pretty sad....
    If YEC is true it would be pretty obvious that God existed.... like I said I now think "God" doesn't want to be obvious and I'm unable to convince any skeptics of its existence.
    I wanted strong proof - not just the possibility that a hidden God is out there. At that time a hidden God was depressing because it couldn't give my life hope.
    wanting it does not make it true. Or even likely. It doesn't even MAKE it possible,
    I think that's why I became an atheist after giving up YEC.

  8. Top | #98
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    In post #63 Jimmy Higgins said "All books are atheists. None of them believe in god(s)." So that joke follows that the theory of evolution could be atheist.
    Yes, every single scientific throry lacks a belief in anything supernatural.
    But it does not make sense to split off 'atheistic evolution' from creationism unless you refer to every science as atheistic.
    'Recent findings in atheistic geology...'
    'A professor of atheistic biology...'
    'A lot of atheistic computing nerds scrambled for Y2K...'

    If you don't do it for every one, then it's wrong to single out evolutionary theory.
    That's pretty much what theistic evolution does. Take the known science and attribute everything to god.
    Then wasn't I being reasonable to immediately reject Christian theistic evolution?
    i don't think it's reasonable to ascribe every single thing and every step of every process to a god. Surely he could have created processes that would continue to function if he left for a while.

    But, if YOU found their evidence convincing, thst's up to you.

  9. Top | #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Yes, every single scientific throry lacks a belief in anything supernatural.
    But it does not make sense to split off 'atheistic evolution' from creationism unless you refer to every science as atheistic.
    'Recent findings in atheistic geology...'
    'A professor of atheistic biology...'
    'A lot of atheistic computing nerds scrambled for Y2K...
    Reminds me of a guided tour at Mammoth Caves National Park. The ranger began by saying that there are many stories about how these caves were formed. it seemed odd until I realized we were in Kentucky. He then went on to say he was giving the scientific account. He didn't say he was giving the atheistic geological account. No doubt there were plenty of religionists about who believed the caves were formed when a 600 year old man built a magic boat on orders from a magic sky voice.

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    Veteran Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    ....But it does not make sense to split off 'atheistic evolution' from creationism unless you refer to every science as atheistic.
    I'm saying there is atheistic evolution and theistic evolution - not that evolution is always atheistic - but I rejected Christian theistic evolution and went straight to atheistic evolution.

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