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Thread: The horrible horrible world of sports

  1. Top | #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Here's a theory. Don't you think it's simply down to more time has passed since the age of imperialism?
    It may be part of it but I think there are other factors involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    The reason I think this is because prior to the age of imperialism racism wasn't a thing. Ethnic cleansing, tribalism and and extreme forms of nationalism existed. But that was on a much smaller level. And in no way justified scientifically. Scientific racism, I think is a product of a specific historical time. And will go away the further back that historical time can be found.
    You think/observe this or you read it somewhere ? It's actually getting quite difficult to define racism. Almost any incident is declared "RACIST!!" when actual fact it probably isn't. I think a lot of things that are "racist" is really more of a class/caste category. An extreme snobbery perhaps

    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    I couldn't find the specific article again. But this it's the German cycling coach, Patrick Moser, who comes up at the top when googling for coaches who have been fired for racist remarks.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=coac...hrome&ie=UTF-8

    But it wasn't just that article. It was the article that made me see the pattern.
    Yes, I saw that earlier and that's a pretty good example. Sports is very competitive, it really is about stamping your superiority over others in a measurable way.
    Moser was trying to motivate his team by telling them they were superior to the "goat/camel herders in front of them". Racist ? Hmm, not really. I feel that this falls into the class/caste category where the Germans are a superior culture and have better athletes than a poor nation such as Algeria.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    I'm willing to bet that anybody who manages to achieve any kind of greatness and extraordinary achievement will be a little bit retarded when it comes to current events. Otherwise they wouldn't have time to be so awesome.
    A lot of elite athletes are ignorant, knuckle dragging boneheads with too much money. Perhaps a certain amount of leeway should be given when they make a faux pas. But the Twitterati lynch mob and offense archeologists who comb through social media looking for indiscretions must have their pound of flesh.

  2. Top | #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    Another dodgy racism charge was leveled at Chelsea defender John Terry who was accused of calling a black opposition player Anton Ferdinand (Rio Ferdinand's brother) "a fucking black cunt, knobhead". That got all the way to the criminal court where Terry was cleared. Terry claimed he called Anton a "fucking blind cunt". I can't remember the details and I can't find the video of the incident but I seem to remember it was something like "Anton, I never called you a black cunt, knobhead", there was actual audio of the incident somewhere. Teh Gruaniad has a slo-mo video but no audio. But this sort of exchange should not ruin people's lives or livelihoods. Apparently the Ferdinand brothers still don't speak to Terry.
    Slurs are interesting that way. It tells us about what is the most taboo in society. Over time they get overused and then they stop packing a punch. But racial slurs are kept potent by this liberal conspiracy to keep them so. It's sociologically interesting.
    I agree with you there. Let's say Terry had simply said "Anton you cunt". Nothing would have come of it. Or if Terry had picked on a different physical feature "Anton, you big nosed cunt" or "Anton you baldy cunt". Same lack of reaction I expect. But add in the word "black", all hell is let loose. That's a strange one to me. Anton is clearly black, why is this attribute never to be pointed out, why is it "racist" to do so ? Of course other attributes are getting into the mix of being taboo. Call someone a "fat cunt" and you are now guilty of fat shaming.

    Masculinity is another taboo. There was a recent soccer game here in San Diego (Loyal) where an openly gay player was "abused" by an opponent. The manager, Landon Donovan pulled his players out of the game. The "abuse" was basically name calling. I don't know exactly what term was used but I imagine someone called another player a 'faggot" or something like that during a heated moment in the match. Poor baby couldn't cope with this and threw a hissy fit. "Someone called me a bad name so I'm not playing." I don't know how a professional athlete gets to this level with such a fragile mentality. I played lower level amateur soccer and getting called names was common if things got heated. So was off the ball acts of violence. It was part of the gamesmanship if you wanted to stamp your superiority over your opponent. Even when I played in the USA on a mostly Latino team, these guys used to use really let fly with the most inappropriate language. It was interesting to see their "racism". How certain Mexicans looked down upon Hondurans or Guatemalans and of course the African Americans. Oof, it was quite an eye opener. But I think it was more class/caste orientated than "racism". But there could be out and out racist behavior from some of these Latino guys, particularly towards African Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    I once saw a study on words for vagina. They start out among dockworkers who thought the current words were a bit lame. They manage to find words that horrify everybody else. So they use them profusely. After a while other working class people get used to it and they start using it. Over time it climbs up the social ladder until fancy people can use it in polite conversation and it has lost all its punch.

    I wish I could find that list again. It's was pretty cool to read it.
    No doubt.

  3. Top | #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    Another dodgy racism charge was leveled at Chelsea defender John Terry who was accused of calling a black opposition player Anton Ferdinand (Rio Ferdinand's brother) "a fucking black cunt, knobhead". That got all the way to the criminal court where Terry was cleared. Terry claimed he called Anton a "fucking blind cunt". I can't remember the details and I can't find the video of the incident but I seem to remember it was something like "Anton, I never called you a black cunt, knobhead", there was actual audio of the incident somewhere. Teh Gruaniad has a slo-mo video but no audio. But this sort of exchange should not ruin people's lives or livelihoods. Apparently the Ferdinand brothers still don't speak to Terry.

    jeezus, now I am terrified I blurt out "black cunt"
    so, misogyny in his insult was okay.
    I will assume you are referring to the use of the word "cunt". In the grand scheme of things "cunt" is just a generic swear word in the UK. Very much part of the vernacular. Some people find it very offensive. I don't find it offensive. I don't use that word very often but I do in certain situations. Or at least I used to.
    oh, the "generic swear word" defense--well, alrighty then; tell me, is "sod" still a generic swear word in the UK?
    "cunt" is an english word, going back centuries--you can find it in Chaucer--for the female genitalia.

  4. Top | #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post

    I will assume you are referring to the use of the word "cunt". In the grand scheme of things "cunt" is just a generic swear word in the UK. Very much part of the vernacular. Some people find it very offensive. I don't find it offensive. I don't use that word very often but I do in certain situations. Or at least I used to.
    oh, the "generic swear word" defense
    Defense ? No, I'm just trying to explain to you how this word is generally used in the UK. The context is typically not misogynist. And to be fair to Terry, he did call Anton a knobhead too which is a reference to the penis. Dickhead and bell end are often used.

    Quote Originally Posted by jab View Post
    alrighty then; tell me, is "sod" still a generic swear word in the UK?
    Pretty much.

    Not sure what your point is so if you have one, get to it eh ?

  5. Top | #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Sometimes people aren't nice, or behave in a way we'd like them to. It's the price we pay for freedom of expression.
    But it sounds like you want to take away the freedom of expression of people that criticise the "not nice" people.
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

    Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor but because we can't satisfy the rich.

  6. Top | #96
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    It's actually getting quite difficult to define racism. Almost any incident is declared "RACIST!!" when actual fact it probably isn't.
    I don't care what wokes say any longer. And I certainly won't let them define words for us. That's a dangerous slippery slope to go down.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    I think a lot of things that are "racist" is really more of a class/caste category. An extreme snobbery perhaps
    The Greeks were amazingly arrogant and condescending when it comes to non-Greeks. But their definition of Greek was simply if they spoke Greek. As long as the foreigner did that and honoured the Greek gods (as well as their own) they were welcome with open arms.

    Rome had a similar view of things, but a lot more liberal.

    Vikings weren't racist, elitist or looked down on non-Vikings at all.

    Scientific racism didn't become a thing until mid 1850'ies when the trans Atlantic slave trade had been going for over a hundred years. It's with people like this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Ignaz_Pruner

    Before this it was something we did because it was out of sight. But Europeans were never cool about the slave trade. It was something we did because the people we sent to the colonies weren't the cream of the European crop. A lot of them were pretty horrible people who had left Europe for good reasons. It was these horrible people who had no qualms about getting in on the slave trade.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    Moser was trying to motivate his team by telling them they were superior to the "goat/camel herders in front of them". Racist ? Hmm, not really. I feel that this falls into the class/caste category where the Germans are a superior culture and have better athletes than a poor nation such as Algeria.
    I don't think that's racist. You'd need to try very hard to find anything racial about that. Danes call Swedes perpetual drunks all the time. We make fun of them for sounding retarded when they speak. Nobody is offended. Herding goats is a big part of the Algerian economy. So it's a class thing, rather than race thing.

    I think it's perfectly permissible in the land of sports, to do your best to wind up your opponents.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    I'm willing to bet that anybody who manages to achieve any kind of greatness and extraordinary achievement will be a little bit retarded when it comes to current events. Otherwise they wouldn't have time to be so awesome.
    A lot of elite athletes are ignorant, knuckle dragging boneheads with too much money. Perhaps a certain amount of leeway should be given when they make a faux pas. But the Twitterati lynch mob and offense archeologists who comb through social media looking for indiscretions must have their pound of flesh.
    A lot of athletes are also more focused on winning than they are on how they formulate themselves politically correct. Especially in the heat of the moment.

    Getting offended by this, is trying way too hard to get offended.

  7. Top | #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    A lot of athletes are also more focused on winning than they are on how they formulate themselves politically correct. Especially in the heat of the moment.

    Getting offended by this, is trying way too hard to get offended.
    But why just athletes, what about plumbers and steel workers? What about a host of other trades? Earlier I posted this:

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly
    Okay, I want to understand your position.

    Many of us are parents, raised families, we're grandparents, we raised kids. Are you advocating that I tell my five-year-old who is playing T-ball that it's okay to tell Sammy he's just a dumb nigger boy while you're playing the game? But that when the game is over it's improper and unacceptable to refer to him with racist comments.

    Also, if someone calls you a Spook or a Gook or a Coon because your parents are black and asian, take it all with a smile while you're up to bat. It's all in the game. But when the game is over these are insults and cannot be accepted.

    Is that your position?
    I will assume you took that as a rhetorical post as it elicited no response from you. Or am I missing the assumption that at some "proper" age children engaged in table tennis are best advised to begin appearing dull and intellectually dimwitted when they pick up their paddles? This is sport after all, so feel free to grunt, sweat and be abusive.

  8. Top | #98
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    I think the real lesson of this thread is just how important it is to some people to be able to think well of themselves.

  9. Top | #99
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    A lot of athletes are also more focused on winning than they are on how they formulate themselves politically correct. Especially in the heat of the moment.

    Getting offended by this, is trying way too hard to get offended.
    But why just athletes, what about plumbers and steel workers? What about a host of other trades? Earlier I posted this:

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly
    Okay, I want to understand your position.

    Many of us are parents, raised families, we're grandparents, we raised kids. Are you advocating that I tell my five-year-old who is playing T-ball that it's okay to tell Sammy he's just a dumb nigger boy while you're playing the game? But that when the game is over it's improper and unacceptable to refer to him with racist comments.

    Also, if someone calls you a Spook or a Gook or a Coon because your parents are black and asian, take it all with a smile while you're up to bat. It's all in the game. But when the game is over these are insults and cannot be accepted.

    Is that your position?
    I will assume you took that as a rhetorical post as it elicited no response from you. Or am I missing the assumption that at some "proper" age children engaged in table tennis are best advised to begin appearing dull and intellectually dimwitted when they pick up their paddles? This is sport after all, so feel free to grunt, sweat and be abusive.
    It's not a question of just letting it slide. It's a question of what punishment is appropriate. Would the acceptable punishment for Sammy be that you give him up for adoption, or is it more reasonable to just give him a stern talking to?

    It's also a question of context. Your kid is playing sports with friends that he's going to have around for a while. He's insulting people in his own tribe. For kids anybody they play sports with will always be people in the same tribe. For adults in national competitions, it's another environment, with a hell of a lot more riding on succeeding. When more is riding on winning, people might say more unfortunate things.

    And then it's also the situation of making everything said about anybody in any way ethnically different into racism. The cycle coach called Algerians a bunch of goat herders. What exactly is racist about that?

  10. Top | #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    It's also a question of context. Your kid is playing sports with friends that he's going to have around for a while. He's insulting people in his own tribe. For kids anybody they play sports with will always be people in the same tribe. For adults in national competitions, it's another environment, with a hell of a lot more riding on succeeding. When more is riding on winning, people might say more unfortunate things.
    Eh ? That's not the way youth sports work. There are cross town rivalries, high school rivalries, out of state tournaments. You actually seldom compete within your "tribe". You compete almost always against another tribe. Jeezus, high school basketball, softball AYSO soccer gets real chippy and that's just the girls !! Parents are ejected from gym/field all the time too.

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