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Thread: Objective/Subjective

  1. Top | #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAB View Post
    untermensche, Steve_Bank asked a question of you in post #117:

    If science and astrology are both based on assumptions, is there a difference between astrology and science? If not what differentiates the two?
    I think it's a good question.

    My answer would be that astrological assumptions are based on nothing but fantasy, while the assumptions scientists have are based on research, experimentation, rigorous, methodical trial and error, ie, hard evidence.

    Further, I wouldn't even say that science is based on assumptions, because it isn't.
    I did not say all assumptions were good assumptions and I did not say all assumptions are false.

    I said that all we have are experiences and the assumptions we make about them.

    If future experience aligns with assumptions we consider them good assumptions. That is science.

  2. Top | #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    You ASSUME much without evidence....
    We are that which experiences and makes assumptions.

    Show me something else.

    If nothing else science and discovery is a process.
    Is there a discovery that is not an experience or an assumption based on experience?

    Show me one.
    In the words of the American philosopher Pop Eye Sailor 'I ams what I ams'. Words to live by.

    Science is an experience, so is sex. Science is a particular experience which you question. Color vision is an experience, the experience is explained by science. Is that difficult to accept?

    Pain is an experience, physically explained by medical science.


    Extend the index finger of your right hand, put the tip against the side of your head and say out loud 'It is all in my head'. That being said all experiences are not equal. Philosophy bakes no bread, science builds bakeries.


    Is there a difference between astrology and say aerodynamics used to design airplanes? Both are experiences. Both use logic and reasoning. Both use mathematical calculations.

    We have heard 'science does not get it' before.

  3. Top | #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    We are that which experiences and makes assumptions.

    Show me something else.



    Is there a discovery that is not an experience or an assumption based on experience?

    Show me one.
    In the words of the American philosopher Pop Eye Sailor 'I ams what I ams'. Words to live by.

    Science is an experience, so is sex. Science is a particular experience which you question. Color vision is an experience, the experience is explained by science. Is that difficult to accept?

    Pain is an experience, physically explained by medical science.


    Extend the index finger of your right hand, put the tip against the side of your head and say out loud 'It is all in my head'. That being said all experiences are not equal. Philosophy bakes no bread, science builds bakeries.


    Is there a difference between astrology and say aerodynamics used to design airplanes? Both are experiences. Both use logic and reasoning. Both use mathematical calculations.

    We have heard 'science does not get it' before.
    You are making many bad assumptions about my position. You don't understand my position, clearly.

    Just because science is built upon many assumptions does not mean they are bad assumptions.

    Good assumptions allow you to predict future experiences.

    It is a foundational assumption in science that if you can predict future experiences it is because you are making good assumptions.

    But they are still assumptions.

    Humans don't have anything besides their experiences and the assumptions they derive from them.

    Your hand waving doesn't address this point.

  4. Top | #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    We are that which experiences and makes assumptions.

    Show me something else.



    Is there a discovery that is not an experience or an assumption based on experience?

    Show me one.
    In the words of the American philosopher Pop Eye Sailor 'I ams what I ams'. Words to live by.

    Science is an experience, so is sex. Science is a particular experience which you question. Color vision is an experience, the experience is explained by science. Is that difficult to accept?

    Pain is an experience, physically explained by medical science.


    Extend the index finger of your right hand, put the tip against the side of your head and say out loud 'It is all in my head'. That being said all experiences are not equal. Philosophy bakes no bread, science builds bakeries.


    Is there a difference between astrology and say aerodynamics used to design airplanes? Both are experiences. Both use logic and reasoning. Both use mathematical calculations.

    We have heard 'science does not get it' before.
    You are making many bad assumptions about my position. You don't understand my position, clearly.

    Just because science is built upon many assumptions does not mean they are bad assumptions.

    Good assumptions allow you to predict future experiences.

    It is a foundational assumption in science that if you can predict future experiences it is because you are making good assumptions.

    But they are still assumptions.

    Humans don't have anything besides their experiences and the assumptions they derive from them.

    Your hand waving doesn't address this point.
    Your views are made on bad assumptions.

    Answer if you can. If all is subjective perception is there any difference between astrology and physics? Is there a difference between metaphysics and physics?

    And while you are at it, is love real?

    Saying you have no answers is perfectly acceptable.

    And BTW, that we are made by our experience and perceptions is not exactly a profound revelation. That has nothing to do with objective vs subjective.

  5. Top | #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Your views are made on bad assumptions.
    Yet you can't name one bad assumption I make?

    Tell me about my bad assumptions. What are they?

    Answer if you can. If all is subjective perception is there any difference between astrology and physics? Is there a difference between metaphysics and physics?
    Science are the assumptions that allow us to predict future experiences.

    What future experience does astrology predict greater than some other system?

    With physics we can build something (a series of experiences) and predict we will have the experience of images from Mars in the future.

    And while you are at it, is love real?
    It is a real experience.

    Saying you have no answers is perfectly acceptable.
    Thanks.

    And BTW, that we are made by our experience and perceptions is not exactly a profound revelation.
    I have not said that.

    I said: All we have are our experiences and the assumptions we make from them.

    Tell me about something that is not an experience or an assumption made from experience.

    That has nothing to do with objective vs subjective.
    I totally disagree.

    All we have access to about the external world are our experiences of it. With our minds we make assumptions.

    Therefore "objective" is some defined subset of "subjective".

  6. Top | #126
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Objective is an observation related to existing material, measured, observations. Subjective is an observation based on one's own belief based on what can not be independently verified.

    Both may be real but only something already confirmed as related to other things can be treated as objective.

    A self expressed belief must be confirmed by operations relating to existing facts before it can be seen as an objective observation.

    untermenche you have not established that your beliefs are verified by independent relationships with other material things.

    For example others have established material relationships between color and light temperature and frequency.

    You untermenschie have only waved your hands and pointed to your personal experience when you say color is created by experience. You have not established your experience is independent of your internal belief.

    Until you either demonstrate color is independent of material relation of light frequency and/or temperature your position remains unsubstantiated.

    Let the hand waving begin.

  7. Top | #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Objective is an observation related to existing material, measured, observations.
    Observations are a type of experience. Measurements are a type of experience.

    All humans have are their experiences and the assumptions they make from their experiences.

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