Page 9 of 13 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 130

Thread: Do atheists think that debating Christian apologists is wrong?

  1. Top | #81
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן
    Posts
    12,062
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    29,968
    Rep Power
    82
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth Harris View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    But it's not about us.

    The World is either created by a God or gods, whatever they may be, or it is not.

    It can't be both a special creation and the result and work of natural evolution.
    Sorry, I was assuming you were discussing the appearance of humans in the world, not the entire creation. The creation of man is typically called the special creation by Christians. I should have been clearer on that.

    So in the terminology as you are using it, yes the universe would be considered a "special creation" to those of faith. What happens after that is where the discussion begins.

    Ruth
    If we are talking about the bible, Genesis describes the creation of the earth, sun, moon and stars, animals, plants and people.

  2. Top | #82
    New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2021
    Location
    Williamsport, PA
    Posts
    45
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth Harris View Post
    Before I take the time to answer you item by item, it would probably enable better understanding on your part if you read a thread I started a few years ago, and in particular this post of mine in that thread:

    https://talkfreethought.org/showthre...833#post382833
    So if the Bible is kind of true in some passages but not in others, then how did God slip up on the errant passages? Or did he just sit by as those primitive, superstitious people who wrote the Bible filled it full of myths that have no historical bases? Why spare God and deem him to be a myth too? Frankly, fundamentalism makes more sense than that. At least fundamentalism is more consistent.

    Since you were a Christian apologist it is likely that your beliefs fell on the conservative side of the spectrum. I am considered more a moderate on that spectrum, so some of your assumptions about me are likely incorrect.
    I'm not sure how you define "conservative," but as an apologist I argued for God's existence, his miraculous powers, and salvation through Christ's death on the cross. Do you hold those beliefs, or are you too moderate? The core supernatural doctrines of the Bible are on the chopping block as much as anything else as far as I'm concerned because they can be and probably are as wrong as anything else in the Bible.

    Farther on in this thread, I asked a question: did you intend to infer that religious people as a whole are responsible for adverse impacts on science and education? I am very interested to learn your answer.
    No, I wouldn't necessarily blame most religious people for stifling science. Many Christians have made tremendous contributions to science. However, religious scientists make those contributions in spite of their religious beliefs and not because of them. Can you imagine a scientist who has advanced degrees in science who rejects the Theory of Evolution because she cannot reconcile evolution with her belief that God created life? Well, you don't need to imagine because it does happen.

  3. Top | #83
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    328
    Archived
    66
    Total Posts
    394
    Rep Power
    65
    Apparently you didn't read that thread. There is no need for either one of us to waste time if you are not that interested.

    Ruth

  4. Top | #84
    Veteran Member funinspace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    4,080
    Archived
    10,245
    Total Posts
    14,325
    Rep Power
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier View Post

    So if the Bible is kind of true in some passages but not in others, then how did God slip up on the errant passages? Or did he just sit by as those primitive, superstitious people who wrote the Bible filled it full of myths that have no historical bases? Why spare God and deem him to be a myth too? Frankly, fundamentalism makes more sense than that. At least fundamentalism is more consistent.
    No they aren't more consistent. They just choose differing plates in the cafeteria line...and then pretend they don't. And then go LALALA at reality (no Floody; and the YEC joke) all over the place...

    I'm not sure how you define "conservative," but as an apologist I argued for God's existence, his miraculous powers, and salvation through Christ's death on the cross. Do you hold those beliefs, or are you too moderate?
    I'd say you were a fundagelical. Your wording screams such...

  5. Top | #85
    New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2021
    Location
    Williamsport, PA
    Posts
    45
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Forgive me for interjecting...
    You are forgiven.

    ...but I pretty much agree with Ruths posts. The reasons are easy - I don't doubt Ruth would agree with me that we both wouldn't want to be connected with prosperity churches, as an obvious example among others.
    Don't you accept Jesus' promises? In a sense Christian leaders going back to the earliest stages of the sect have been "prosperity preachers." The aforementioned Jesus we are told clearly promised goodies to all those who ask for them in prayer. He was clearly wrong, but that doesn't keep his followers from continuing to ask and continuing to explain away all their prayers' failures. Even if you torture the text to make it say that all the promised rewards are only to be realized in heaven, the message is still one of "believe us and prosper!" Heaven, after all, is the ultimate prosperity, is it not? Besides, if you can't believe that God will make people prosper in this life, then why believe he can grant prosperity in heaven? So whatever else you might say about so-called prosperity churches, at least they have the balls to put their miracles where their mouths are. Liberal Christians by contrast tend to retreat from any circumstances that might serve to falsify their beliefs tucking God and his promised rewards away to a time a place where we cannot check to see if they're real.

    Quoting your "Then tell Jesus not to do it to other people" there is a better and clearer context to this part of the narrative, when Jesus warns believers of false doctrine and false prophets under the guise of Christianity whilst preaching in His name i.e. don't be lumped in with them..
    I'm not sure how that's relevant to my pointing out that Jesus was a major-league generalizer. In Matthew 23, for example, he angrily denounced the Pharisees as fools and as murderers. He made no exceptions for any of them. And in John 8 he "tars the Jews with a broad brush" telling them they had the Devil for their father. He made no exceptions for "the Jews." So if you're going to say generalizing is wrong, then you better sit down with Jesus and have a very serious talk with him.

  6. Top | #86
    New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2021
    Location
    Williamsport, PA
    Posts
    45
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth Harris View Post
    Apparently you didn't read that thread. There is no need for either one of us to waste time if you are not that interested.

    Ruth
    I dismantled all of your arguments. Please concede that you are wrong.

    You won't, of course, but I should make clear to you that my main point is that I don't buy the talk about these supposed intellectually sophisticated Christians. I'm not saying they're dumb generally but only in the context of their beliefs. Sure, some Christians might have wised up enough to realize that snakes don't talk, but they'll never give up believing in that invisible man in the sky. Personally, I find talking snakes more believable than talking Gods. We at least know snakes exist, but Gods are less likely.

  7. Top | #87
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Far Western Mass
    Posts
    21,302
    Archived
    24,500
    Total Posts
    45,802
    Rep Power
    93
    Quote Originally Posted by funinspace View Post
    I do have to say that atheists often seem to want all Christians to be Biblical literalists, or God-breathed Bible types. I find that odd, as us atheist aren't all the same either...
    Is that what's going on?
    I just want an explanation for the process to arrive where they did. How did they determine Genesis is literal history, and simply must be held as such, for example, but instructions about giving lots of support to the poor, those aren't critical?

  8. Top | #88
    Veteran Member funinspace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    4,080
    Archived
    10,245
    Total Posts
    14,325
    Rep Power
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth Harris View Post
    Apparently you didn't read that thread. There is no need for either one of us to waste time if you are not that interested.

    Ruth
    I dismantled all of your arguments. Please concede that you are wrong.
    Somehow I don't think you are making a joke...sigh

    I see humility is not something you had or kept from your Xian past.

  9. Top | #89
    Veteran Member funinspace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    4,080
    Archived
    10,245
    Total Posts
    14,325
    Rep Power
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by funinspace View Post
    I do have to say that atheists often seem to want all Christians to be Biblical literalists, or God-breathed Bible types. I find that odd, as us atheist aren't all the same either...
    Is that what's going on?
    I just want an explanation for the process to arrive where they did. How did they determine Genesis is literal history, and simply must be held as such, for example, but instructions about giving lots of support to the poor, those aren't critical?
    Not that I noticed (assuming you meant regarding yourself...).

  10. Top | #90
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Between two cities
    Posts
    2,954
    Archived
    56
    Total Posts
    3,010
    Rep Power
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Forgive me for interjecting, but I pretty much agree with Ruths posts. The reasons are easy - I don't doubt Ruth would agree with me that we both wouldn't want to be connected with prosperity churches, as an obvious example among others. Quoting your "Then tell Jesus not to do it to other people" there is a better and clearer context to this part of the narrative, when Jesus warns believers of false doctrine and false prophets under the guise of Christianity whilst preaching in His name i.e. don't be lumped in with them..
    How do you tell the false prophets from the true one(s)? And false doctrines from the true one(s)? What is the test one uses to make these determinations?
    Its got to be in accordance to the teachings of Jesus, by their fruits you shall now them ... And not in the vein, as like taking verses as examples, and making arguments from the OT such as below, when it should be regarding Christ:

    Originally Posted by Learner Perhaps they were rather misquoting. People leading the way, having more of a politcal and power ethic than one of Christ.
    Perhaps you should go back to the source and read Exodus 21 again. There is no ambiguity about Biblegod endorsing slavery, and providing explicit instructions on how different slaves are to be treated. Hebrew slaves have special rules, while women get the short end of the stick, as is typical with the Bible. God's instructions in this matter are very difficult to misunderstand or misquote.
    There's been quite a few talks on slavery (I don't think I need to go into) in which theists have highlighted the differences and varied degrees in context on other threads. But the above, you should perhaps ask that to the Jews. I'm talking of those Christians who may be misquoting Christ i.e. going against His teachings! (Christians (should) follow the example of Jesus BTW).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •