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Thread: What would an effective education system look like?

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    What would an effective education system look like?

    One of the key elements of turning around economies are strong education systems. Ignorance is bad, to cure ignorance one needs knowledge, to get knowledge one needs to be educated.

    The question at that point becomes:

    - if we wanted to optimize education systems, how would they be structured, what would students be taught, and so on..

    I'd make the argument that they'd ideally have a focus on:
    - practical basics: reading, writing, basic arithmetic, communicating
    - practical life-skills: politics, logic, finance, home-care, health
    - philosophy and religion

    And all of this would lean towards teaching students the raw truth about objective reality without regard for taboos.

    What do you think?

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    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    One of the key elements of turning around economies are strong education systems. Ignorance is bad, to cure ignorance one needs knowledge, to get knowledge one needs to be educated.

    The question at that point becomes:

    - if we wanted to optimize education systems, how would they be structured, what would students be taught, and so on..

    I'd make the argument that they'd ideally have a focus on:
    - practical basics: reading, writing, basic arithmetic, communicating
    - practical life-skills: politics, logic, finance, home-care, health
    - philosophy and religion

    And all of this would lean towards teaching students the raw truth about objective reality without regard for taboos.

    What do you think?
    We're emotional beings focused on near term outcomes.

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    Super Moderator Bronzeage's Avatar
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    Education is the art of convincing someone they need to work hard to obtain something for which they have no idea what possible use it will be, or what it is.

    If you accept this definition, it's simple to see the main problem facing an effective education system is one of salesmanship. It doesn't really matter what the curriculum is, because curriculum is not the cause of ineffective education systems. If and when a education system becomes effective, the curriculum problem will solve itself. There was a time when a knowledge of Latin was thought critical to a liberal education. Today, Latin courses are rare.

    The problem which faces any education system is that the client and the customer are two different people. The client is the recipient of the service, and usually labeled as the student. Students are not the customer because they have no choice in the selection of their education and more importantly, they don't pay for it.

    The customer is the family of the students. Only the family has the power to influence the students and require(encourage, coerce, PYL) the student to participate and absorb the education. This and only this is what makes for an effective educational system.

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    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Yeah. Kinda. Families won't influence students unless their situation reflects desired outcomes of education and the child can see that.

    So rather than put it on education we should be putting our eggs into community desired social realization. Then, as you say, any education system will work.

    Yesteryear small homogeneous communities designed education for their children. Education succeeded. As communities became more diverse, larger, more stratified, discriminatory, education failed as it was tasked to integrated these communities into the precedent idealized small homogeneous population model.

    Unless we get to the task of solving discrimination, stratification artifacts, diversity accommodation in communities, as Bronzeage says, the client, customer, symmetry won't exist in schools.

    Gonna cost folks (thanks Philos). But we bought in to being an immigrant accepting society when we wrote our constitution. Way past time to get to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronzeage View Post
    Education is the art of convincing someone they need to work hard to obtain something for which they have no idea what possible use it will be, or what it is.

    If you accept this definition, it's simple to see the main problem facing an effective education system is one of salesmanship. It doesn't really matter what the curriculum is, because curriculum is not the cause of ineffective education systems. If and when a education system becomes effective, the curriculum problem will solve itself. There was a time when a knowledge of Latin was thought critical to a liberal education. Today, Latin courses are rare.

    The problem which faces any education system is that the client and the customer are two different people. The client is the recipient of the service, and usually labeled as the student. Students are not the customer because they have no choice in the selection of their education and more importantly, they don't pay for it.

    The customer is the family of the students. Only the family has the power to influence the students and require(encourage, coerce, PYL) the student to participate and absorb the education. This and only this is what makes for an effective educational system.
    What would you say an 'effective' education system would be accomplishing?

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    A real educational system would be directed to the individual.

    It would be free of so much of the indoctrination that presently exists, which is really many times just good intentions.

    People telling the young how to behave insanely so that they can get along in an insane society.

    And be able to view things like the Republican debates as if they are in any way serious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    A real educational system would be directed to the individual.

    It would be free of so much of the indoctrination that presently exists, which is really many times just good intentions.

    People telling the young how to behave insanely so that they can get along in an insane society.

    And be able to view things like the Republican debates as if they are in any way serious.
    Something that's really telling is how revisionist the history I took in Canadian public schools was. I'd guess the intention was to shield us from reality, and that's exactly what it did. You grow up in a world where no one knows, or tells you how you got to where you were, and so everyone just accepts the present 'as the way things are supposed to be'.

    I took two history courses in high-school, and four in university, and it wasn't until I seriously self-studied history for a couple years that I really felt like I 'got' the evolution of society.

    So in that sense what did I really learn from the history courses I took in high-school? Nothing but a bunch of cherry-picked facts, and zero wisdom.

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    Super Moderator Bronzeage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronzeage View Post
    Education is the art of convincing someone they need to work hard to obtain something for which they have no idea what possible use it will be, or what it is.

    If you accept this definition, it's simple to see the main problem facing an effective education system is one of salesmanship. It doesn't really matter what the curriculum is, because curriculum is not the cause of ineffective education systems. If and when a education system becomes effective, the curriculum problem will solve itself. There was a time when a knowledge of Latin was thought critical to a liberal education. Today, Latin courses are rare.

    The problem which faces any education system is that the client and the customer are two different people. The client is the recipient of the service, and usually labeled as the student. Students are not the customer because they have no choice in the selection of their education and more importantly, they don't pay for it.

    The customer is the family of the students. Only the family has the power to influence the students and require(encourage, coerce, PYL) the student to participate and absorb the education. This and only this is what makes for an effective educational system.
    What would you say an 'effective' education system would be accomplishing?
    Preparing people to be productive members of the society. That is actually a very low standard.

    The problem is, the client and recipient of an education, is by definition and reality, incapable of appreciating the opportunity. Offering an interesting non-boring education is not sufficient to keep a child in school.

    To draw upon a fictitious example, Tom Sawyer(the Mark Twain T.Sawyer) and Huckleberry Finn were the same age and lived in the same school district. Fictitious Tom attended school and Huck did not. What was the difference?

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    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Uh, one was becoming a con man and the other was becoming a wanderer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronzeage View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post

    What would you say an 'effective' education system would be accomplishing?
    Preparing people to be productive members of the society. That is actually a very low standard.

    The problem is, the client and recipient of an education, is by definition and reality, incapable of appreciating the opportunity. Offering an interesting non-boring education is not sufficient to keep a child in school.

    To draw upon a fictitious example, Tom Sawyer(the Mark Twain T.Sawyer) and Huckleberry Finn were the same age and lived in the same school district. Fictitious Tom attended school and Huck did not. What was the difference?
    I don't know if kids need to know the purpose of their education, so long as they glean some useful information in the process of going to school.

    If they aren't gaining information that helps them throughout their life then education is nothing but a sorting hat.

    So I'd guess the goal would be to help them understand how the world actually works.

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