Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ... 678
Results 71 to 78 of 78

Thread: Jesus nailed to a cross? Evidence does not support it

  1. Top | #71
    Elder Contributor bilby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
    Posts
    11,923
    Archived
    10,477
    Total Posts
    22,400
    Rep Power
    55
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronzeage View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by joedad View Post

    If we're talking about the plausibility of a story for determining historicity we should talk about the whole story, not bits here and there. If we're allowed to pick out bits of stories then lots of implausible stories are now historically plausible, even though they didn't happen as written. Paul Bunyan is therefore historically plausible.
    Basically, the supposition of this thread is that the resurrection of Jesus might not be true, because accepted details about the crucifixion lack verisimilitude.

    This is a claim somewhat similar to saying Jesus never existed because 1st Century Palestinians were dark skinned with brown eyes, while all images of Jesus portray him as fair skinned with blue eyes.
    Yeah, there is something a bit pointless about this discussion. When the story is "This guy was crucified, and then after he was dead, he came back to life", it's pretty obvious that it's the final clause that is highly suspect, and requires some serious evidentiary support if we are not to discard the tale as obviously fictional.

    To waste time debating what, exactly, we mean by 'was crucified', or even 'This guy', is to miss the elephant in the room - 'he came back to life' is, according to all experience, impossible. It's that bit we need to be provided with compelling evidence for; the details of what the guy looked like, or exactly what is meant by 'crucified' (other than the clear implication that it was fatal) are largely irrelevant.

    These facts become more relevant if we consider counter-hypotheses; If we accept, for the sake of argument, that 'he came back to life' is an honest appraisal of a real event, then we can say 'But after only a few days on a cross, it's possible that he was in a coma, and that the witnesses mistook that for death - rendering his apparent return to life less implausible'. This misses the point that we have absolutely no basis for accepting the ad argumentum; The best we can do here is say 'If this isn't completely made up, then it might not have been a miracle' about something that we have every justification for thinking IS completely made up.

    It's pointless to discuss how Superman could fool the citizens of Metropolis into thinking he can fly, by 'merely' leaping a tall building in a single bound. The fact is that Superman, like Jesus, is a fictional character, and can do anything, and have any attribute, at the whim of the person telling the tale.

    And that remains true, even if we find evidence that there really is (or was) a mild-mannered reporter called Clark Kent, whose girlfriend's name is Lois, living in a large city in the USA. Such trivia, no matter how implausible or coincidental we may find them, are not support for the acceptance of fiction as reality.

  2. Top | #72
    Veteran Member iolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rhondda
    Posts
    1,248
    Rep Power
    10
    The question is why Christianity spread so quickly, and how a recent historical event could somehow be made up and have such powerful emotional effects on so many. Just denying American fundamentalism doesn't help much.
    Anyone who is against colonialism, racism, theft and child-murder but likes Jews is, in America, called an anti-Semite.

  3. Top | #73
    Veteran Member Sarpedon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    MN, US
    Posts
    1,979
    Archived
    8,446
    Total Posts
    10,425
    Rep Power
    55
    Islam and Mormonsim also spread rapidly. No reason for explanation. If one religion spread much more rapidly than all others, then one might have to explain.

    Instead, one can say that religions spread rapidly when conditions are ripe for them, and that these conditions might vary from religion to religion.

    For christianity, it is sufficient to note the religious turmoil in the Roman Empire allowed its initial spread, and then becoming the State religion of the Roman Empire ensured its further and continued spread.

  4. Top | #74
    New Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    45
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by iolo View Post
    how a recent historical event could somehow be made up and have such powerful emotional effects on so many
    I think this is a key point. A first-century charismatic cult leader has a reversal of fortune and ends up being executed in a particularly gruesome fashion. His emotionally traumatized followers go into denial and end up making him bigger than life after his death.

  5. Top | #75
    Veteran Member iolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rhondda
    Posts
    1,248
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Oecolampadius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by iolo View Post
    how a recent historical event could somehow be made up and have such powerful emotional effects on so many
    I think this is a key point. A first-century charismatic cult leader has a reversal of fortune and ends up being executed in a particularly gruesome fashion. His emotionally traumatized followers go into denial and end up making him bigger than life after his death.
    That is why Hitler's followers are in power in Germany, I expect!
    Anyone who is against colonialism, racism, theft and child-murder but likes Jews is, in America, called an anti-Semite.

  6. Top | #76
    New Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    45
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by iolo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Oecolampadius View Post

    I think this is a key point. A first-century charismatic cult leader has a reversal of fortune and ends up being executed in a particularly gruesome fashion. His emotionally traumatized followers go into denial and end up making him bigger than life after his death.
    That is why Hitler's followers are in power in Germany, I expect!
    I remember from my youth a news article about the making of a German movie featuring Hitler as a character. When the actor playing Hitler was taking a break near the set, he was approached by a group of teary-eyed, hysterical old women who thought that der Führer surely must have been raised from the dead.

  7. Top | #77
    Veteran Member iolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rhondda
    Posts
    1,248
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Oecolampadius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by iolo View Post

    That is why Hitler's followers are in power in Germany, I expect!
    I remember from my youth a news article about the making of a German movie featuring Hitler as a character. When the actor playing Hitler was taking a break near the set, he was approached by a group of teary-eyed, hysterical old women who thought that der Führer surely must have been raised from the dead.
    Anyone who is against colonialism, racism, theft and child-murder but likes Jews is, in America, called an anti-Semite.

  8. Top | #78
    Veteran Member Sarpedon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    MN, US
    Posts
    1,979
    Archived
    8,446
    Total Posts
    10,425
    Rep Power
    55
    I thought that story was about Charles De Gaulle and the movie was "Day of the Jackal."

    Good movie.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 58
    Last Post: 12-19-2015, 05:19 PM
  2. Democrats support terrorists then, they support terrorists now.
    By Alias2 in forum Political Discussions
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 11-09-2015, 07:27 PM
  3. Why didn't Jesus just stay on the cross?
    By C_Mucius_Scaevola in forum General Religion
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 04-18-2015, 05:15 PM
  4. Replies: 23
    Last Post: 03-25-2015, 10:23 PM
  5. No Forgery Evidence Seen in "Gospel of Jesus's Wife" Papyrus
    By Perspicuo in forum Religious Texts
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 12-15-2014, 10:51 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •